My Morning Jacket (MMJ) — known for a soulful, psychedelic, and southern sound — put themselves on the map in 2005 with the album Z. They went from opening for Bob Dylan and the Foo Fighters — to headlining festivals and arenas. By 2015, the Louisville-originated band earned three Grammy nominations and a reputation as one of the most captivating live acts in rock ‘n’ roll. Then, for several years, they went on a hiatus.
More: My Morning Jacket: KCRW Live From The Basement (MBE, 2006)
They returned in 2020 to release two albums. Now they’re out with their 10th studio album — is. Press Play speaks with Jim James, the band’s vocalist, guitarist, and lead songwriter. And James is no stranger to KCRW, having performed at or around the station upwards of a dozen times — first stopping by with MMJ in 2001. He’s also played multiple sessions around his four solo albums, and visited with side projects including Monsters of Folk and The New Basement Tapes, T. Bone Burnett’s supergroup dedicated to turning long-lost Bob Dylan lyrics into proper songs. In addition to his KCRW appearances, James wrote the foreword to our photo essay book, From The Basement (released in 2016).
This interview has been edited for length and clarity.
KCRW: Let's talk about a song you wrote 20 years ago, “Wordless Chorus,” from Z. Here are some of the lyrics: “Forget about feeling – that's not what pays. But you know all of this can change. Remember the promise as a kid you made.” You wrote that in your 20s. What was that promise as a kid you made? And how do you think about that promise now?
Jim James: Well, it was like I was trying to tell myself to be true to my art. I feel like a lot of times, honest emotion and feelings aren't what make money in the arts. There's all this wall of image and marketing – and almost everything but the music, at times, feels like is what makes music successful, or art successful, or whatever. I was trying to talk to the inner child and myself or whatever, and just remind them to be strong and stay committed to the art. Even if it felt like at times, in this image-driven world or whatever, that I wasn't quite making it.
That was before the band really, really blew up. So did it become more difficult later to do that?
No. Luckily, we've always been such a weird-looking group of souls or whatever that somehow we've always been able to just do our thing. And it's really interesting because now that I look at it, I'm so grateful and just feel so blessed that we're able to create music for a living. I think when I was a younger person, I really got lost in a lot of the ego of it all. I was very competitive and very jealous and very bitter, and just fought a lot of emotions as I tried to find all of my self-love and self-worth in these external validation things. The more I've grown, the more I've seen that we're just so blessed to be able to have carved out our own little world that we enjoy living in.
This sets up another song I want to play. It's called “Time Waited” and it’s the lead single from My Morning Jacket’s new album Is. Tell me about that song and how you created it.
I've always been into sampling and sampling culture, and that's a sample of a song called “Blue Jade” by Buddy Emmons, who's a pedal steel guitar virtuoso from the 60s and 70s. A friend sent me that album on YouTube. The album's not commercially available – it was almost like a demonstration record for his guitar shop in the 60s. So I hunted down a copy of the record on vinyl. … I realized I was obsessed with the piano intro, and so I sampled that, made a loop of it, and just listened to it over and over and over.
And then at the same time, I had a dream about … a completely different song that was called “Time Waited” in the dream. I cooked up a demo of that song, and I sent it to Brendan O'Brien, who produced this record. And I was sending him a lot of songs, and he was like, “I don't really like the song, but I like this idea of time waiting. … What if you use these lyrics for some other song or something?” I was like, “Okay, I'll think about that.” And then it was just a really cool coincidence that I had this other version of this song that was based around this “Blue Jade” sample. I was working on it, and I also had my notebook open to the “Time Waited” dream song, and I was like, “Oh, okay, let's try these lyrics and see if they fit.” And it just really fit so beautifully.
Brendan O'Brien, is a very esteemed producer. He’s won several Grammys and worked with Bruce Springsteen and Pearl Jam, among others. This is the first time you didn’t produce a My Morning Jacket album. You handed over the controls to Brendan this time, is that correct?
Yeah. I've co-produced with other people … but this is the first time that I've ever fully handed over the reins to somebody. I've never been able to do that before because I feel like my entire self-worth was based on the success or failure of my music career. For me, it was like I couldn't succeed if I didn't do every single thing. I had to be the coach of the team and the star player, and I had to write the songs and produce the songs. I had this beautiful experience when we were working on this record. We were really butting our heads against the wall and had already done two full sessions that really weren't going where we wanted them to go. And there was this moment when we were talking about it, and we decided that maybe we could use a coach. I've always been reluctant to do that because of my own ego stuff, but also because a lot of these coaches can bring in their huge ego to the thing, and that can be very toxic to a situation.
It was just this really interesting and beautiful timing of meeting Brendan and sitting down with him and playing him demos, and just really getting this sense from him of just connecting to the songs – so honestly and so brutally. It was so cool because I was able to not get my feelings hurt just because he didn't like song A or song B, but then really get into it with him about song C and song D [that] he really loves, but he thinks this could be better, or that could be better. It was really eye opening.
Was that about him and how he communicated? Or was it about you and how you decided to take things differently?
It's both because I think my journey of therapy and trying to heal myself and trying to love myself – I think – enabled me to be open. But at the same time, if Brendan would have come in with this big ego trip – because people are really tripping hard and they want to tell you how many Grammys they've won and how many records they've made with Elton John, and try and brag about all this stuff – that's just an instant turn-off for me. I've had a lot of meetings with people like that. That was the coolest thing about Brendan. Not once was he ever bragging or trying to inflate his ego. … He was just so focused on the music in a way that really felt to me like … play[ing] for a great coach. … He doesn't need to be my best buddy, he doesn't need to go vibe out with me and get into wild stuff, and he doesn't want to be my guru. He just wants to work on music with us and is so good at doing that.
I'm wondering also if the band wanted that too. How did the band feel about you controlling every aspect of the music?
I think it really benefited us all to have this coach in there, and I think there's a reason why the coach isn't playing the game. … There's a reason why this formula is so time-tested. Because if the coach is out there literally playing the game, they can't see … the larger picture. That's what the biggest revelation was for me … I'm in the game, throwing the ball, also with a pen in my hand trying to take notes and trying to coach the team. And it's just chaos. I think everybody really benefited from working with somebody like Brendan, who could coach us and move us along, and also inspire each person and sit down and take time with each person in a way where they really felt seen, and also really critiqued, in a really healthy way that I think was really inspiring to everybody.
Let's hear some more music. This one from your new album is. This one is called “Out in the Open,” and it was built on a ukulele riff that you recorded several years ago during the pandemic. I think the lyrics illustrate what we've been talking about. I just love the idea of a ukulele because I see it as such a delightful instrument. It's not like a serious instrument, but it totally creates such a fun, upbeat sound. Is that what you were looking for?
No, it's hilarious because I was actually in a pit of depression. It was at the height of the pandemic. I have this little ukulele that I love to play, and it was another lonely night in the pandemic of complete isolation. … It was really beautiful because it turned from this deep, deep sadness into this really joyous place, and it fit the message of the song or whatever. I feel like we all know how hard it feels sometimes to be honest or truthful with ourselves or with other people. But once you do, what a relief you feel, what a joy you feel, and openness in your life and in your heart.
You've been pretty open about your depression, and it's been something you have struggled with most of your life.
Yeah.
How are you doing now?
I'm doing really well. I'm so grateful. I think it's a lifelong battle. … I really want people to know that it's okay if you suffer from depression, and it's okay to get help. There's nothing wrong with you if you need help. … I think everybody could benefit from therapy, no matter what's going on in their lives. And I've tried so many forms of therapy over the years, and I feel like I was really fortunate to find a therapist that I really connected with in the pandemic, and he's really helped me work with EMDR and parts work.
What's EMDR?
If you Google it, there's much more scientific explanations than this, but basically, when we have trauma, we're in survival mode or whatever, and we store the trauma in the wrong part of our brain where it will replay when we don't want it to. Everybody knows that feeling of having a trauma triggered or something like that. And with EMDR, you're working with your therapist to reprocess these traumas as you're doing this left-to-right brain activity. You can either do it by tapping or following a light, and it's basically like recoding your brain. … For me, the way it felt … it turns your trauma from a full-color, full-sound HD movie that plays when you don't want it to into a black-and-white photograph that you store in the right place in your mind, in your drawer of memories with all your other memories. So it's not like you don't remember that the trauma happened to you, but it no longer has such power over your life.
EMDR stands for Eye Movement Desensitization and Reprocessing. And that's been very helpful for you? That's good.
Oh my god. I mean, it's just been so helpful. I just can't even. That, combined with various psychedelic healing things that I've tried as well … they're all pieces of a puzzle that has really started to add up to me just feeling more peaceful. Because I've just never enjoyed it here on earth, and I've always really struggled with it, and I've always wanted to escape the earth and get off of it. And I had this moment when I started working with my therapist now – it's like, okay, you've been trying to escape the world for 40 years or whatever. It's not working. Let's try the opposite. Let's try and be as present as we can. Let's try and be as here as we can. And that led me to not drinking anymore, because I'm an alcoholic and that was one of my main vehicles of escape. So just things like that. It just keeps adding up … to … how much can I get into reality rather than running from it?
Did you have any suicidal ideation?
Oh, yeah. Oh god, yeah. … Suicide has been a large theme in my life. I've had several friends who've committed suicide, and my great-grandfather committed suicide, and he's been a big part of my story. … When I was a kid, Kurt Cobain was everything to me. His suicide opened the door to that even being a possibility. I think there were several times in my life where I thought that was going to be my best option, and for whatever reason, the universe didn't want me to do that. I'm still here, and I feel so grateful because it could have easily gone the other way. And it's a lifelong battle. It's not like anybody ever fully defeats depression or alcoholism. … I think if we keep trying and we keep supporting each other, then hopefully we can make this journey more normalized, and let people know that whatever they're going through, it's okay. … They can get through it.
I'm so glad that you’ve decided to be present, and you’re still here with us, making beautiful music. I want to hear another song: “I Can Hear Your Love.” It has an old-timey feeling to it, the music itself. But are you talking about a person? Are you talking about yourself? Both/and?
Yeah, I think both/and. I was just thinking about: You don't really hear a lot of songs about hearing love. You don't really think about that too much. You hear about feeling somebody's love … tasting somebody's love, whatever. But I was just thinking about how sweet it is when you're in love with somebody, just to hear them in life. I was thinking about, yeah, lying next to me, just hearing somebody turn over and wrestle the pillow, or hear their breathing while they're sleeping, or obviously hear them while you're making love – I just had never really heard anybody talk about that in particular. So I was just thinking about that. And, yeah, I just wanted to make something sweet and almost like a nursery rhyme, just a really simple thing that hopefully felt good to hear.
How does it feel to hear it yourself?
Oh, my god, it feels so good.
Well, I’m so happy you came on the show today and shared your thoughts with us and your music. I really appreciate it. It's been an honor.
Thank you so much.