More Than Friends full transcript

Jordan Gonsalves: One of the questions was, do I want to confess while she's going through a breakup? That one's hard. What do you think?

Myisha Battle: I don't know. My thoughts just keep coming back to the heart wants what the heart wants, and the heart is not on a timeline.

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Myisha: Welcome back to KCRW's How's Your Sex Life? Your sex and dating survival guide. I'm your host, Myisha Battle, and I'm here to remind you that you should always stay true to yourself when you're putting yourself out there; in dating, in sex and in life. Today, we're going to hear your questions about dating with a secret and falling for a friend. I'm here with Jordan Gonsalves. Hey, Jordan!

Jordan: Hi. Thank you for having me!

Myisha: Of course, of course, I'm so excited to have you on the show today. You're the host of the podcast, "But We Loved" where you dive into the untold stories of queer history. You also had a show called "Unshaming," where you dismantled shame around topics like sex and body image. So, I'm excited to have you here today and get your take on these questions. But before we get into that, I have a question for you.

Jordan: Tell me.

Myisha: How's your sex life?

Jordan: God, yeah. I've been kind of dreading this question a little bit. So, my sex life is a little interesting at the moment. I'm actually in the throes of a breakup right now. I just got out of a long term relationship, so I'm still sort of picking up the pieces. And, you know, figuring out what it means to, you know, put myself out there again, and what it means to, I forgot my logins for all of these apps too. So I'm, like, doing the forgot password thing. I'm also just like, wow, you know, the other day someone, I went out for the first time, I guess, after my breakup, and some people were wanting to hit on me. I'm so awkward even talking about this right now, I'm like, some people were wanting to hit on me. And yeah, I'm like, feeling like that, at the beginning of Christina Aguilera song, Beautiful. And she's like, don't look at me.

Myisha: Yeah, you're not ready.

Jordan: That's kind of the vibe. A little bit. I want to be, but I'm not sure exactly if I'm ready to be. But, you know, we're taking it step by step, putting one foot in front of the other, and kind of seeing where things go from there. So I'm not sure how qualified I am to give anyone any advice. But like everyone else out there, sex and dating is something that you kind of have to keep navigating in real time. And I'm right there with you.

Myisha: I think that's actually a really great place to give advice from. You know, it's not the like, oh, I've, you know, been there, done, I don't know, sometimes it can feel like, ugh, you children, you haven't learned yet. You haven't had your heart broken yet. When you're in the midst of that, it's like there's a different kind of energy of like tenderness and, you know, a slower pace to things, and an awkwardness and a timidness and an anxiousness, and I think that that's totally valid. A trend that I've been seeing lately is I've been seeing particularly young women wearing shirts that say fuck the pain away, which is a callback to a song by Peaches. I don't know if you know Peaches, but The Teaches of Peaches. There's a song called the Fuck the Pain Away. And so I'm hearing that that's not your strategy right now.

Jordan: It could change. You know, it's like every day is a different, is a different battle. But yeah, at the moment, I'm just taking it day by day.

Myisha: I hear you.

Jordan: But I support the girls that are wanting to do that, I love that.

Myisha: Same, same. I was one.

Jordan: I have been too, at a different point. It's funny, because I think, you know, every heartbreak maybe feels a little bit different. And even though I think all of us want to sort of pre-package our, sort of the way we navigate things after a breakup, it's like each one is a little bit different.

Myisha: Yeah,

Jordan: You got to kind of listen to what you need in the moment. You know?

Myisha: Totally.

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Myisha: With that, let's get into our first question. And just a quick reminder, our questions are voiced by actors to keep everyone anonymous.

Question 1: Hey, Myisha, I have a secret that is making dating harder than it probably should be right now. I just started seeing somebody that I think I really can see a future with, but I'm not sure if I should tell him about my past. In the early days of the pandemic, I started an OnlyFans, and it was a great way to make a living at the time. I am grateful for that experience, but I am afraid of what this guy might think if I tell him. I know that a lot of people in similar positions to mine made the exact same choice, and I'm not ashamed of what I did. The fear of rejection is just sitting extra hard right now. Any advice?

Myisha: Hmm, this is such a great question, because what I'm hearing is, you know, kind of the remnants of our sex negative culture. And you know, even though this person says like this is in their past and they're not ashamed, I can just still, still feel from them that fear of judgment about a choice that they made to support themselves. Which, you know, a lot of us make choices to support ourselves, and we shouldn't feel any type of way about it. But when it comes to dating and being vulnerable and talking about our past and being open, this can be something that people have a lot of fear around sharing with a partner. So what are your general thoughts about disclosing or not disclosing to a new partner?

Jordan: Oh, my God. When this was being read, I just wanted to keep going like, yes, yes. She touched on so many or he or they touched on so many different kinds of elements of shame. So I guess you know, before I provide any advice, I should say I'm not a therapist and I'm not a psychologist, but I'm a journalist, and my beat as a journalist is around shame and the impact that shame can have on individuals and at society at large. And so I've talked to so many different people about how shame impacts their lives. And no matter what the topic is, whether it's sex or dating or how much money you have in your pocket, or how you feel about yourself when you look in the mirror with no clothes on or with clothes on. There are the same sort of pillars, you know, the fear of rejection, will I be loved? And ultimately, at the core, it's this sort of idea that we are not lovable as we are now, and I think that's what's at the root of this listener's letter. Look, I'm of the mindset that I'm almost 30. At this point, I just turned 29 so I'm a year away from 30, and I think I'm way too wise. I think I'm way wiser than I actually am. But I think because I'm getting closer to 30, I'm just like, I think I just have to leave it all out on the table, like, this is who I am, you know. And the more truthful and honest you can be about who you are, the less time you'll waste with people that aren't really in view.

Myisha: I agree with that. I also think there's an opportunity here for this person to really test whether their instinct that this is somebody who they could see a long term relationship with is right. Because if fundamentally, you're okay with sex work then, you know, you deserve to be with a partner who also sees sex work as valid and not, you know, doesn't think of it as this moral failing because that's at the core, like not going to be in alignment for you, you know. You made this decision for yourself and you feel okay about it. How would it feel to be with somebody who, like, doesn't think that that's okay? Like, I just think that the longevity of this relationship, eventually you would come to a place where you have a conversation about sex work, regardless of whether or not you disclose this to them, and they would say something that was really offensive, or, you know, they might say something that surprises you, because you know, you've built this relationship on something different. I also think it gives you the opportunity to be surprised that this person may be accepting of sex work, and they may even be a patron of an onlyfans, or many only fans. You know, they might think this is great that you did that. So there's that, like, I think there's, there's two sides to this coin where you can take this opportunity to see, is this a relationship that's built on a mutual understanding and values alignment? Or, you know, are you going to kind of ride it out and see if this person is somebody who aligns with who you are and your past? So I agree with you, Jordan, I think this person should come clean and just say, like look, this is what I did. A lot of people did it during the pandemic. I'm cool with it. Hope you are, if not, this probably isn't going to work for me. So I wish this person all the luck, and if they do have that tough conversation, I'd love to hear from them.

Jordan: Me too.

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Myisha: All right, our next question is from a listener who's caught feelings for a friend.

Jordan: Been there.

Myisha: Same!

Question 2: Hey, Myisha and Jordan. I'm a 27 year old man looking for some insight into feelings I've developed for a friend. We'll call her Katie. Katie moved to my city for work two years ago, and in those two years, we’ve become really close. We spend time with each other watching horror movies, cheesy romance, anime, trying new restaurants and grabbing drinks on the weekend. Best of all, we go to concerts together, where we share our love of music with each other. She had a partner when she moved here, and then a different partner for the past year or so, so I never really thought about her romantically, but she recently split up with her boyfriend, and I've noticed myself feeling attracted to her a little more. I started to notice little things she does, like the way she brushes her hair behind her ears, or the way she smiles and laughs with me when I make a joke that's not even funny. In those moments, I feel my heart flutter a little bit. I'm really into fashion, and I've gifted her a few pieces of clothing, which she really seems to love. I even bought a dress for her a while back that we both thought was really cute. She knows I think she looks gorgeous in it, and has worn it to the past couple of concerts we've gone to together, and every time we sang and danced together, I felt like my heart was going to burst out of my chest. After a recent failed hinge fling, I was talking with another friend about what I want in a girlfriend, someone who's kind, stable, intelligent, who shares my love for food, fashion and going to concerts. And the thought passed over my head that I wish I could find someone like Katie. Anyways, my first question is, am I an asshole for developing these feelings for her shortly after she broke up with her boyfriend? And my second question is, do you think there's a way I could bring up these feelings I have for her in a way that won't negatively impact our friendship? Even if she doesn't feel the same way about me, I'm still okay with being just friends. I'm not sure when to bring this up, because I don't want to confess my feelings while she's still trying to heal from the loss of that last relationship. Everything is so confusing. But to add even more difficulty, I'm feeling insecure because I wonder if she'd even be attracted to me. It seems like the types of guys she's interested in are tall and skinny, and even though I've made some good progress in my weight loss journey, I'm average height and still pretty chubby. Please help!

Myisha: There's so much here. I love this so much.

Jordan: There really is, yeah.

Myisha: I love this so much.

Jordan: So much. Where do we start?

Myisha: Okay. Let's, let's start by acknowledging the very real and deep friendship that this person has developed with Katie. Because I think sometimes when you have those confusing feelings of, oh, wait, I'm like, actually attracted to this person in like, non platonic ways, I'm like, romantically interested, it can really mess you up and be like, well, what you know, what is this relationship about? Like, all the questions of you know, what might you lose if you, you know, take this risk and share your feelings and all of that. I think that it's just worth recognizing that you've built something really nice with this person over time. And I guess another place to start is just to acknowledge, I mean, for me, I want to acknowledge also that there's this generational difference. This person is so cautious and careful. And I think that speaks to a lot of the like cuspy, like young millennial to Gen Z, like wanting to make sure that they do everything the right way and respectfully and not cross any boundaries, but like, you are not an asshole for liking your friend. So just hear that and know that. What else would you like to say to this person, Jordan?

Jordan: You know, this is so interesting because so like, you know, I mentioned before, I've had this situation before, but I've actually been the person that has chosen not to reveal my feelings. I was a little scared that we would ruin an amazing friendship, and I wasn't kind of ready to let go of the friendship, and I'm actually really thankful, because years later, I realized, like I would never want to date this person. So I think I bring a little bit more of a risk averse perspective to it, where I can. Say, listener, I completely understand why you would be so nervous about this, especially if it's an amazing friendship, because that's scary to put yourself forward and and to you know, wonder, am I going to ruin this amazing friendship? So I would start with that. I would say, No, you're not an asshole for, you know, thinking about, you shouldn't blame yourself for having these feelings. And I think start with that. I actually took some notes here. So one of the questions was, do I want to confess while she's going through a breakup, hmm, that one's hard. What do you think? That was a question I wrote down that kind of stumped me.

Myisha: The timing is, is rough. I don't know. My thoughts just keep coming back to the heart wants what the heart wants, and the heart is not on a timeline. I think that the idea that she is wearing the dress that he bought her to friend hangs is signifying something.

Jordan: That's super cute.

Myisha: I think it's adorable. I guess that's a good faith interpretation of it. Some people might be like, oh, she's just playing you dude, like she just wants you to buy her things, whatever. I want to, like, play devil's advocate and be like, maybe there's something, like an ulterior kind of thing that she's working on you. But I don't think that's going on. I'm thinking of myself as someone who, you know, if I were in that position, like wearing something that a friend bought me when I saw them was significant of a shared at least, like, connection.

Jordan: Oh, hell yeah, for sure.

Myisha: So I'm less concerned about the timing of all of this. Like, did she break up with her boyfriend? Because she felt more connected to you, you know.

Jordan: Right. right.

Myisha: And is like, kind of in her own way, like going through these heartbreak feelings, but also exploring something with you. I guess there's a fear there too, of are you going to be a rebound? I don't know. Like there's to me more reward after risking asking the question of, like, Hey, I'm having feelings for you. It's okay if you're not, but is there something going on here that we should explore? You know?

Jordan: I love that, and I think that it's not super often that you fall for a friend, I feel like that's kind of a rare thing, and so that's a big deal. You know that you share values with this person and you know that the things that are important to you are probably important to them. That's why you're friends. I would say that I completely agree with you, Myisha. And you know what, I'm a big believer in autonomy and giving the other person the right to decide what they want to do with the information that you present to them. So I would say, go for it, and let Katie decide whether she's into it or not, and she'll let you know. What do you think about the body image part? Because that was kind of snuck in toward the end, but I think a big part of that.

Myisha: Yeah, knowing her relationship history as a friend is obviously going to put this person in a position of compare and despair, you know, if they're comparing this, but you know.

Jordan: For sure.

Myisha: It could be that Katie is in a part of her relationship journey where she understands that maybe these other guys in her past were not able to deliver the kind of connection that she's feeling with you, and that's worth something. That's worth exploring. We don't know, you know, because we haven't asked her yet. But people change, and you might be part of that change. I think this person is just feeling a little, you know, they're feeling that cultural weight of who is desirable, and they're automatically discrediting themselves as being someone who is, you know, desirable. But I think that there are many qualities that you've described in your connection with this person, what you like to do, how you spend time together, how you feel around this person, that give me glimpses that there's something going on there. There's, you know, whether or not Katie wants to admit it, you know, like, there, there could be something going on there, too. Like, maybe you are the friend, the chubby friend, who she just loves to hang out with and she feels comfortable with you and doesn't see you as a potential romantic connection, and you knowing that is also going to be good. For you, because,

Jordan: Exactly.

Myisha: That, that's definitely something that you know you could hear, and it might be hurtful, but you can heal and you can move on from.

Jordan: I totally agree. And you know, it sounds like there's love here, whether it's romantic love, whether it's just friendship, love, it's love. And what I would encourage this listener to ask themselves is, why do you believe that the love is conditional? Why do you believe that because you look a certain way, or because the timing maybe is not perfect, that the love still isn't going to be there? What in your past leads you to believe that conditional love is maybe the best that you are deserving of? That's what comes to mind for me from this letter, for sure, but it sounds like the possibility is just gorgeous if it works out, though, you know?

Myisha: I agree. All right. Well, we've definitely, we've given a fair and balanced, I think —

Jordan: I would say so yeah.

Myisha: Advice to this person, and I just really hope that they end up having a conversation with Katie. Whatever the outcome.

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Myisha: Let's take a break, and when we get back, we have one more question about ending a relationship. Don't go anywhere.

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Myisha: And we're back. Let's get into our last question.

Question 3: When do you know it's time to move on from a relationship? My partner and I keep getting on each other's nerves. I feel like I'm constantly tiptoeing around what I say and do. It's affecting my life to the point where I feel cut off from friends and sex feels like a chore. Is this relationship over?
Jordan: Oh, wow, that was the whole letter?

Myisha: That was the whole thing.

Jordan: That's a big one right there.

Myisha: There are a lot of red flags, though, in here, in my opinion.

Jordan: Oh, it was kind of like, almost blinding with redness, yeah, almost.

Myisha: Yeah, the tiptoeing, constantly getting on each other's nerves.

Jordan: Not wanting to have sex. That feels like a chore. It's a big one.

Myisha: And they feel cut off from other people in their lives. I don't like that. Not one bit. I'm gonna, I'm gonna go to worst case scenario first, and then we can back off. There are toxic relationships that have these elements to them, and they are hard to untangle from, because you're so in the pattern with the other person that you think that's just normal, and that if you have a good day, one out of 14 or one out of 30 days, that like there's hope for something to change. And I'm here to tell you as someone who's gone through being in toxic relationships, this is a pattern that may not change. If you have been in this relationship a long time, it's been smooth sailing, you've hit a rough patch, and this is what that rough patch feels like. You may need some outside help to navigate it, because there could be some stuff where you progressed in the relationship to the point where your shit is kind of colliding with their shit. We all have shit. We just bring it to relationships, and we don't know it. And then we're activated, or we're triggered, or, you know, we fall into bad habits of communication, and we can't see the forest for the trees. We can't get out of our own way. So that is when seeing a couples counselor could be really helpful. I just my gut is, it just keeps coming back to feeling cut off from your friends.

Jordan: Yeah.
Myisha: That's really like if you don't even feel like you have connection to friends because of what your relationship has done, whether that's explicitly this person has told you, I don't like your friends, I don't want them around, or you just feel so drained by this relationship that you don't have energy to put into your friendships. Big, big, big, red flag, and again, worst case scenario, this is a toxic relationship, and that's by design, right?

Jordan: Wow.

Myisha: That this person has gotten you into a cycle where they want. To feel isolated. They want you to feel disconnected from your friends, and you being aware that you do is actually the first step in you getting the hell out of that situation.

Jordan: Myisha, I could listen to you all day. I'm like, you don't even need me here. I feel like I'm in church. I keep just saying, absolutely. Plus one to everything you just said. It's funny, because I think when I was younger, you know, I kind of feel like I may have even written some form of this letter, been in some form of this relationship, when I was a lot younger, you know, the tip toeing thing. You can call it whatever you want, tiptoeing, walking on thin ice, walking on eggshells. I think it's all sort of variations of the same thing, which is, I don't feel comfortable sharing my opinions, and I don't feel comfortable actually voicing my concerns out of fear of blank. And I think this listener may have to ask themselves a question, why am I prioritizing someone else's comfort over my own? And maybe muse over what kind of answer that brings up to the surface the cutoff from friends thing is wild to me. I'm like, wow, because that's your lifeline to community, to getting a second opinion to you know, feeling connected to something larger than yourself. And time and time again in my work as a journalist, what comes up over and over and over again is that the opposite of shame is belonging, and that is really derived from being a part of a community. And if you can't, if you feel cut off from your community, you can't really feel that sense of belonging. And I think the sex thing is really just kind of byproducts of all of that. You know, I think when sex is off in the relationship, that is like information. And I would really look at that as a symptom of something that is a bigger condition or a bigger issue that, you know, you listeners should really pay attention to. I'll end with this breakup suck, but they're not that bad. They're horrible. But if you're staying in a relationship to avoid the thought of being by yourself or being on your own or starting over or or loneliness? I think you already know the answer to your question.

Myisha: I'm wondering if this person has been, you know, isolated from their friends because their friends don't like their partner and their friends have distanced,

Jordan: Oof been there.

Myisha: Yeah, their friends maybe have distanced themselves because they don't know, you know how to spend time with this person without being like, hey, you know your partner's really awful. Maybe that is something, and there's an opportunity here for this person to maybe reach out to their community and say, you know, I'm really unhappy in my relationship. I'm really in need of a friend. And your friends might be like, Oh, thank God. You know, yes, let me help you. I've been waiting for this call, I've been waiting for this email, I've been waiting for this text, I've been waiting for this. DM, you know, however you want to reach out to someone to say, like, I'm thinking about, you know, this relationship, and it may not be good for me, because, yeah, all the things,

Jordan:Which is brave.

Myisha : Yes, it is brave. And just to validate, like, the question asker is saying, you know, when is it time to move on? Well, you've laid out like, some really crucial data for us just as outsiders, we don't even know the details, and we can say this is probably a relationship that, at the least, needs some outside perspective, either from a friend to be like,

Jordan: I love that.

Myisha: Listen, this is what I've seen. This is what I think you deserve, or outside perspective from a counselor. At the very least, it needs that, and at the most, it needs some separation and for you to move on.

Jordan: Those are great options for this listener.

Myisha: Yeah like the relationship isn't over, like you're still clearly in it, right? Like there's still some work to be done, and I think that work is really just for you, listener, you know.

Jordan: Absolutely.

Myisha: It's for you to really think about. Are you in a relationship that you feel proud of, happy with, excited to tell people about, you know, one that feels like it's bringing you closer to your community, not farther away.

Jordan: And I would add one last thing, if my partner were never to change, would I be happy in this relationship? Because I think that's also a question we have to ask ourselves from time to time. You know, we are the only ones that can change. We can't force anyone else to change, and so if my partner were to stay the exact same as they are now, would I be happy?

Myisha: Mm, hmm. All right.

Jordan: Good luck, listener.

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Myisha: It's time for our last segment. I have three questions lined up for you that are all related to sex and dating, and you get to pick which one you want to answer. Are you ready?

Jordan: I'm nervous, but excited.

Myisha: Okay, cool, cool. Here are your choices. A, who was your first TV or movie crush? B, what is a dating horror story that you've had to live through and learn from? Or C, what's a piece of advice you wish you took earlier about overcoming shame?

Jordan: Hmm, you know, thankfully, I thank the dating gods for this. I am not. I live in New York City. I've done the single thing before. I've done the dating thing before. Thankfully, I have no, oh, I actually have one.

Myisha: I loved your face, how it just changed the moment you've stumbled upon this memory,

Jordan: I do have one. Yeah, I do have one. Okay, so I met this guy on Tinder. He honestly was very sweet over text, but like a little too sweet? I guess my first red flag was when he had messaged me “When we meet up do you prefer a handshake or a hug?” And I was kind of like, I said hug because I was like, yeah, I generally do tend to hug my dates and no shame to people who do a handshake. Like, more power to you. I guess I was just kind of like, don't you kind of figure that out give with like context clues, and sort of like reading the room, and kind of like feeling it out in the moment. So that was a little bit of a, let's say, an orange flag. So then we met, and he kind of catfished me a little bit. He did not exactly look like his photos. But I was like, You know what? I can dig it still. But you know, the deeper we got into the conversation, I was like, something feels a little bit off, and I don't know what it is, so I ended up just kind of saying goodbye. It was really nice to meet you after the date was over. And, you know, he then immediately messaged me and was like, I want to see you again. When can we hang out again? And I was like, you know what? Right now, I'm in my ethical slut era, and basically what that means to me is that I'm always going to be super upfront with people, like, if it's not a vibe, I'm just going to be honest and tell them it's not. So I told him, like, hey, it was really great meeting you, but it wasn't really a vibe for me. But you know, I really do wish you the best, which was a huge deal for people pleaser Jordan, but I was like, you know what, I'm just gonna do it. So we didn't exchange phone numbers, we didn't exchange emails, but I get a giant long email from him, and I'm like, how did he even find my email address? Like, I don't even know. And he's talking about how heartbroken he was over the fact that I decided not to pursue another date with him, and that we really had energy, and he's like, been taking the last few days to recover. Yeah, it was crazy. If anyone is, for those that can't see us, Myisha's mouth.

Myisha: Very wide, very open.

Jordan: But you know what? I took it as a badge of honor, because up until that point, I had no New York City horror stories with dating. And I was like, I need one, you know? And this wasn't so bad.

Myisha: It wasn't so bad. It's weird, for sure, like, uh, that. I don't know. The email, that part, I don't like that. That's freaky.

Jordan: Yeah, a little bit. I was trying to figure out where he got that from, but I don't know. He was kind of like a tech hacker, like coder person at his job.

Myisha: See, but that makes it worse!

Jordan: I, you know what? I choose to not —

Myisha: Better check your bank statements.

Jordan: Yeah, let me do that one year later, a year and a half later, let me see.

Myisha: There's, like, two charges for Netflix every month that you've missed. He's just, like, using your account.

Jordan: Probably yeah, but that was an odd one for sure. But yeah, I more so felt for the, felt for the chap. I was like, you know, I hate to break it to you, but I'm not that much of a heartbreaker on the first date, so I think it might be a little bit more than me.
Myisha: Yeah. Well, then when that stuff happens, it's so clearly the other person, that helps, that certainly helps, and I'm glad that that's where it, where it ended.

Jordan: Moral of the story, I learned to always trust my instincts.

Myisha: Yes, yes.

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Myisha: Really grateful that I got to spend some time with you today and to you know, have our listeners hear the wisdom that you have to share. Please tell people where they can find you so they can follow along and receive more of that wisdom.

Jordan: Well, speaking of wisdom, right now, I am the host of a new podcast on iHeartMedia. It's called "But We Loved" and it's all about teaching young people queer history, but It's told through my interviews with queer elders. And so even though it's about history, it has this beautiful element about passing down wisdom from one generation to the next, and people can listen to "But We Loved" wherever they're currently listening to this podcast on Spotify, on Apple podcasts, and we really want to show our listeners that queer people come from such a rich, amazing, brave, courageous history, and it's ours to inherit. And you can follow me at Jor underscore Gonsalves on Instagram or Tiktok.

Myisha: Thank you so much for being here. This was amazing.

Jordan: Thank you for having me.

CREDITS

Myisha: And thank you for listening. Next time on How's Your Sex Life, I'll be answering your questions with Tuck Woodstock, host of the podcast Gender Reveal.

Tuck: Because of the sort of swipey swipe app culture that we’re in it’s so easy to look for the one thing to be like thank god I don’t have to think about this person anymore, you know? Oh they missed three of my jokes in a row? That doesn’t mean I’m funny, or not funny, but it does mean it’s not gonna work because I’m just getting the L in the chat, ya know? [laughter]

Myisha: If you want advice about sex or dating, remember to drop us an email or voice memo at sexlife@kcrw.org. We'll keep you anonymous.

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Myisha: How's Your Sex Life is a KCRW original podcast. I'm going to break up the usual flow of our credits here to remind you that KCRW is a nonprofit based in L.A. with a lively group of members who love podcasts, music, culture and expanding our minds and hearts. Won't you join and support all we do here at KCRW, you can unlock sweet member perks like the cutest merch, exclusive events, pre sales and discounts. Go to kcrw.com/give. Okay. Back to naming names of all the great people who work on this show. Our producer is Andrea Bautista, with help today from Myriam-Fernanda Alcala Delgado. Our executive producer is Gina Delvac. This episode was mixed by Hope Brush. Our music was created by Carolyn Pennypacker Riggs. Special thanks to Women's Audio Mission, Arnie Seipel and Jennifer Ferro. And a big shout out to our voice actors. We'll let them introduce themselves on the way out.

VO 1: This is Michelle Pantoja. Thanks for listening.

VO 2: This is Michael Joson. If you liked this episode, share it with a friend.

VO 3: This is Christopher Ho. See you next week for another episode of KCRW's 'How's Your Sex Life?’