Ghosting sucks! full episode transcript

Heather Chelan: The goal here is to get your partner off at that point, and if they need a vibrator, go grab it homie! Charge that shit up.

Myisha Battle: By any means necessary.

Heather: Yeah. Let's go!

MUSIC

Myisha: Welcome back to KCRW's How's Your Sex Life, the podcast that makes you feel like maybe your sex life is okay! I'm your host Myisha Battle. I've been a sexologist and dating coach since 2016 and as a coach I help people reach specific goals like meeting new sexual partners or making sex better in long term partnership. Just think of this podcast as free advice from a seasoned professional who has seen it all. Today we're going to hear from listeners who need advice about dirty talk and ghosting and I am here with Heather Chelan aka Heb On The Web. Hey, Heather!

Heather: What's poppin!

Myisha: Yes! So glad to have you here today. I almost said in-studio, but we are, you're in-studio!

Heather: Yes!

Myisha: You're in the KCRW studio!

Heather: I'm in a really cool studio.

Myisha: I'm also in a really cool studio, but we're just not together! Heather, you're a comedian who makes amazing music as well and funny videos that I love ranging from topics like why we should not pay extra for oat milk to why you want to kiss everyone. So, you know, a wide range of topics there, but they're all really, really funny and have brought me a lot of joy! So thank you for that.

Heather: I'm so glad! I know I looked back through our old DMs and I was fangirling over your book because I was genuinely obsessed with it. This is Supposed to Be Fun and then yeah, you, I think you responded. You're like, “I love your oat milk song!” and I was like ah!

Myisha: It's really nice when the love is mutual.

Heather: Yes, it is!

Myisha: Well, we're not here to sing unfortunately, we're here to give the people advice. And you're gonna help me give out some much needed advice to our listeners and question askers today. Before we hear from them though I have a question for you.

Heather: Okay!

Myisha: How's your sex life?

Heather: Um, it's a little non-existent right now. I'm kind of like, just chillin’.

Myisha: Ok!

Heather: And it's my first time off the apps for like, an extended period of time in a while and not really dating. Haven't really hooked up with anybody much this year at all. And I think that's okay?

Myisha: You're in — you're living in the question.

Heather: Yeah!

Myisha: You're living in the question moment.

Heather: Yeah, I think it's, I think I'm chillin’. I really think I'm chilling. I'm like, I'm feeling pretty calm right now. And you know, if it happens, if it feels good, that's fine, but I'm not feeling super feral like, I need to hook up with anybody right now. And sometimes, you know, I go through those phases, but right now not so much.

Myisha: Don't we all.

Heather: Yeah! Specifically, ovulation period but —

Myisha: Yes! Yes. We haven't talked too much about just like, cycles, hormone cycles for different people, different bodies, but it's so real and, you know, cycles of life too, where you are, and just like your development of your sexuality. And, you know, yeah, there's a there's a lot of cycles involved. And so it sounds like you're you're in process right now and taking a beat, and I think that's wonderful.

Heather: Yes, yes, absolutely. It's all the — my friend coined the heb and flow of life.

Myisha: I love that. All right. Well, let's hear what our listeners need help with today. As a reminder, we use voice actors to keep everyone anonymous.

Question 1: I've been involved with a man for almost a year. He likes to talk dirty during sex and wants me to do it too. He knows this is not the way I'm used to having sex. I've tried it, you know, to please him, but I don't feel authentic doing it. Any suggestions on how I can become more comfortable with this?

Heather: Hmm. I mean, part of me wants to say like, Well, no, you're just not comfortable with it and that's fine and you don't need to become more comfortable with it, like to please him. But I relate to this. I don't really like to talk a lot. I get really stressed out. Don't ask me questions. Don't make me think like, I'm already so much in my head and thinking about like, how I'm saying something or saying the right thing, or trying to think of like a clever thing to say or a sexy thing to say, stresses me out. And I know personally, I could stand to get out of my own head more during sex and I'm sure that would help me just because I could just be authentic with my responses. But if they are feeling a hundred percent in their body and calm and comfortable and still don't really know what to say, maybe it's just not for them?

Myisha: Yeah, I think this is a great point, and you know, there, there are a lot of ways that dirty talk can go wrong. I mean, this is like the subject of a lot of, like, sketches, like people trying to do this, and it just going awry because one person feels uncomfortable or doesn't really fully embody, like what's necessary in the moment for this to be a successful scene or conversation. And some people legit just do not like talking during sex. So the part that kind of jumps out to me that is telling is that they say they don't feel authentic doing it. So my question would be like, how do you authentically engage with your sexuality? Are you more somebody who gives feedback with your body? Are you somebody who, you know, is has a really active fantasy going on. And that's how you're like getting involved in the situation, which I know sounds counterintuitive, but like, we're, we're only human, we can, you know, do two things at one time. And so sometimes people are like, off in a fantasy that's helping with their arousal. And then like, somebody is like, tell me what you want to do to me. But it's like, I'm, you know, I'm doing something else, actually! And that's not necessarily being rude. It's just like how our minds and bodies are working in a sexual context. So yeah, I think this person should give some real thought to what does feel authentic for them. And sometimes that's just like, a moan and a yes, that feels great. And a do more of that, you know, like dirty talk doesn't necessarily have to be, you know, super, super vulgar and super, super detailed. If it's just you being able to vocalize something in the moment to encourage your partner along, that might be enough. What do you think?

Heather: Yeah, I wonder if, if their partners expectations are kind of what makes it feel inauthentic. Like, if maybe they might feel more authentic with just a moan or just saying, yes, that feels good, but maybe their partner is saying what you were saying, like, what do you want me to do to you? Or what do you want to do to me? Those are the questions that stress me out, because I'm like, bitch, I don't know! Like, I am, I am trying really hard to stay in this moment, and like, not think about things. And then also, I feel like saying those things set some type of expectation, like, oh, I said it, and now I have to do it or something, and so it kind of takes me out. But if if for this person who wrote in it feels more authentic, yeah, just to do something calmer, then I think maybe we can come to a middle ground where they don't need to, like, necessarily have a full on conversation if that's what their partner is looking for. But their partner can also be okay, if Yeah, okay, maybe I can't ask them questions. I have told my partners in the past, please don't ask me things. Like, you could tell me something like, Oh, that feels good, more that, whatever, but please don't ask for like my opinion right now. I can't! I'm trying not to think of like my grocery shopping, like I'm trying so hard to stay in my body!

Myisha: Yeah, it can be a process. So talking could feel, you know, really organic to somebody and it could feel really distracting. So, you know, think about where on that spectrum you might fall, and then also think about like, what's your authentic expression of this and how can you maybe bring that forward a little bit more? And it might require having a conversation with your partner, like Heather has bravely done in the past to say like, yo, don't ask me anything. I really need to like focus in and that distracts me. Yeah.

Heather: It does kind of also make me a little bit sad hearing like, how do I fix this? You know, how do I change this about myself? And it's like, but you don't necessarily need to. I mean, obviously, we don't know their situation. It's nuanced. This was only a couple sentences. We don't know really what's going on, but like, there could be a lot more to it. But you don't necessarily need to change anything.

Myisha: I agree. And I think sometimes we have blocks around externalizing our desires. So sometimes my clients will come to me with like, I want to dirty talk. I want to get more comfortable with this. I feel a lot of shame when I say certain things, but I want to be able to say them more freely.

Heather: Right.

Myisha: That's not what I'm getting here in this question, right? So I do think that's important to notice that if it feels like something that you're having to force for another partner, it may not be part of like how you authentically want to express yourself and that is totally fine. So, ugh man, this next question, we're gonna, we're gonna talk about ghosting, but I want to take a minute to just like get your take on, you know, ghosting in general, like is there ever a time when it's okay?

Heather: I think once you meet someone in person, absolutely not. It can be rough too if you're like texting someone for like a couple days and you feel excited and they ghost then I feel like even then it's a little bit like man, come on, you could have just said like something happened, but that I will let slide more. But once I meet you in person, even if it is one shitty date, also can I swear? Bad date?

Myisha: Oh yeah.

Heather: Ex-Christian, I'm like, you know, excited to be able to like, let my tongue fly. You know, Mom's not here to tell me I can't swear.

Myisha: That's right. Dirty talk!

Heather: Yeah, that's right! But yeah, once we meet in person, I feel like, like, okay, I am someone who is working really hard to be a well rounded person who can handle conflict and like, say what I need to say and get what I want. And a good way for me to practice that is by telling dates, "Hey, thank you so much for taking me out, but I'm not feeling a romantic connection. All the best." And that is hard and scary. But I think it's necessary to, to not kind of just run away from the kind of scary thing? And it's simple, you can do it over text! I think it might have been in your book, actually, you said, if you're dating someone, like three months or less, you can break up with them over text, and that set me free in a lot of ways. Because I thought, you know, I had to make it all formal, and like, oh, I gotta call them or I gotta see them in person or something if we've been dating for like, a month or something, but no, you can just text them! And it's fine. Just be honest.

Myisha: It's not that deep! And you know, like, three months is not that deep. Sometimes it can feel that way, want to give full, like, acknowledgement of that, but yeah, that's not a long time to know another human being.

Heather: Yes.

Myisha: And yeah, I hear you. I mean, and yeah, you mentioned the book, in the book too I'm like, it's, it's also paying it forward. I feel like if you are the example of not ghosting, then you will hopefully receive, you know, that in the future of people not ghosting you or like you're setting an example for someone to not do that to someone else.

Heather: Yes! That like maybe they can see oh, look at this. Look at this person who was honest and forward, and gentle also, you know? I feel like of course, it's so easy just to unmatch someone, just to block someone, unfollow, whatever. It's so easy to do that and then just kind of act like it never happened, but what are you gaining from that? You know, what are they gaining? Come on, just, just set them free!

Myisha: Set them free!

Heather: Yeah.

Myisha: And flex your emotional intelligence skills.

Heather: Exactly! Flex that muscle.

Myisha: All right, so let's hear from one of our question askers, who has a question about ghosting and some other unsavory dating behaviors.

Question 2: Hey, I’ve been trying to figure this out. What type of person gaslights or ghosts someone? And are these types of behavior more common among younger generations who grew up with dating apps rather than the older people that started dating pre-internet?

Heather: Hmm, what type of person gaslights and what type of person ghosts? I mean, I feel like they're kind of marks of insecurity. I feel like if someone was gaslighting, they're maybe trying to protect themselves from being at fault for something or getting found out or taking the blame for something. They're like, no, no, that's not what I said, like just kind of always trying to stay on the right side of things. Not take the fall. And then also ghosting. I mean, I don't know if that's an insecurity thing or what, but that feels more just like fear. Both of them are kind of like fear based to me. I don't know.

Myisha: Yeah, absolutely!

Heather: Yeah?

Myisha: No, totally. I think that's — I couldn't have said it better!

Heather: With all the ums and the yeahs and the eh!

Myisha: Yeah, what do you think about this idea that maybe people are gaslighting or ghosting more than they did in the past?

Heather: Well, ghosting for sure, because well, actually, I don't know maybe back in the day, you just don't call their landline again and then that's it and —

Myisha: Oh, I was thinking even, I think, I think ghosting has been around forever. But like, if you don't get a letter from someone, you just think they're dead.

Heather: Right.

Myisha: Like, you are just like, oh, that person died at war.

Heather: And they became a ghost!

Myisha: Yeah. And they're no longer my husband. It's like, you know, and then that's when you hear stories about like, people's second families and stuff.

Heather: Right.

Myisha: Like people were ghosting, for sure, but I think the technology has changed. And I think because the the implication too, of like, you have to respond in a timeframe like the expectation has gotten like, so much shorter. Like, even if friends don't respond to text in a few hours, you're like, are you mad at me? You know, it's like, but again, like when we were using landlines, when we were writing more then obviously, you'd be waiting for a response for days or weeks. So, yeah, I think it's like, time plus expectation, plus, like those very human feelings of insecurity, like, I don't want to, I don't want this person to be mad at me, I don't want to deal with this potentially emotional situation. So I'm just gonna cut the ties all together.

Heather: It's so. I feel like you hit the nail on the head with I don't want them to be mad at me. I feel like, especially in my generation with my friends, like so much. So many of our conversations, we're kind of like, dancing around trying to make sure that everyone is like, okay. Like, are you okay with me? Was that okay? Am I okay? And I do that! I'm trying so hard to get out of that habit, and then so when I see it in other people, I'm like, stop! And I can be kind of like, impatient with it. So I'm like, what are you doing? Just like, just say what you want and like, don't worry about me, just tell me your needs! Because that's what I'm trying to do. I want to be able to say my needs. But yeah, ghosting is like such an easy way to not have to deal with that. It's like, I can just kind of stop responding to their text, and then if my friend asks, I can just say like, eh, whatever. Not a vibe, she wasn't a vibe or whatever. Just kind of leave it at that.

Myisha: Yeah, there's no like, growth moment there.

Heather: Yes, exactly. We got to take all these little, take all these little growth moments where you can because when it comes down to business, when there's something that you can't get out of from ghosting, like you have to talk to someone about something, you are going to want to be prepared for that moment. Like if you're deep in a relationship, and the same issue comes up that you've ghosted over in the past, you want to have practice talking about that! I feel like my sister in law is always making fun of me. She's like, why is everything practice to you? I'm like it is all practice! It is all practice, because it's all scary and like you have to throw yourself in there.

Myisha: Well, and practice makes it seem like you can fail, because it's not like it's not high, like high enough stakes where you lose everything in those moments, you know? It's, it's practice for feeling rejection, it's practice for giving, you know, rejection, it's practice for navigating the hard feelings that bubble up when things don't go our way. So, yeah, I think you're right. It's, it's an opportunity to sort of flex that muscle in the moment. Deal with the emotional fallout. You know, I've definitely, like, tried to politely reject someone, and you know, I've been on the receiving end of some pretty nasty texts. That's never fun! I've been on the receiving end of some really nasty like voice mails and stuff.

Heather: Oh, my god!

Myisha: Yeah, people can be, you know, people can be.

Heather: People! Just people!

Myisha: We'll be back after a quick break. And when we come back, we have a question from someone who can only orgasm with a vibrator. And if you want some advice for your love life, drop us an email or voice memo at sex life at kcrw dot org.

BREAK

Myisha: We are back. So Heather, we have a question from one of your audience members. Would you like to read it to us?

Heather: Yes! Okay so, this person said, "I'm a 31 year old person with a vagina and I can only orgasm with a vibrator. Am I alone? So many of my long term partners give up so fast." And they did a little crying emoji.

Myisha: Yeah, I feel that.

Heather: That bums me out.

Myisha: Yeah, tell me more! Why does that bum you out?

Heather: Well, not the vibrator part, but just the long term partners giving up fast. I did not even know it was possible to orgasm with a partner until, like my eighth or ninth person that I had slept with because I was just, I got so used to people kind of trying for a second being like, "I don't know, what the fuck. Okay, it's too much work." And then I was just like, "Yeah, that's fine! That's just what sex is." And also at the time, I was only having sex with men. So I was like, okay, men come and then, I think we can all relate to this narrative a lot, it's like men come and then sex is over. And that's kind of all that matters. And then if I come it's just kind of like a bonus. So it makes me sad that, that that this person is 31 and feels like most of their long term partners just give up on them. Like they're like they're not worth helping figure out. But also, what okay, if this person can only come with a vibrator, why are their partners not using vibrators? You know? What? They give up because they want to do it themselves, but they can't do it and then maybe ego gets involved or something like that? The goal here is to get your partner off at that point. And if they need a vibrator, go grab it homie! Charge that shit up.

Myisha: By any means necessary.

Heather: Yeah. Let's go!

Myisha: Why aren't we vibing? Why aren't we vibing?

Heather: Yes! Yes. I feel like they, they so frequently, I know I got made to feel like this a lot, but they so frequently make you feel like you are the problem or you are a problem. And I had to learn also what I liked, and what did get me to orgasm because I was young at the time, and I didn't know, like, what they should be doing, because I didn't even know what I liked to do for myself. But then yeah, once I did learn, then it's like, okay, no excuse. Why are you just giving up? What's up with that?

Myisha: Yeah. So I want to kind of give context to this person's question, because they asked if they're alone, and no, you're not alone. I work with a lot of clients who have very, very similar experiences where they're able to orgasm solo, with or without a vibrator, but just like on their own, and then unable to with a partner. Some of that might be getting in one's head, not able to, you know, fully be present. But some of it could be what you're describing, question asker, of a partner who's unable or unwilling to meet you where you need them to meet you in terms of your arousal. And so what's behind this, there's actually a name for this phenomenon, which is the orgasm gap that is more prevalent and persistent in heterosexual dynamics and a lot of this is lack of information about female pleasure, female anatomy. So some people don't understand that the clitoris is the only organ that is designed specifically for our sexual pleasure. That's what it's there for. It's only purpose.

Heather: It's literally only there for that! Yeah. Do not ignore it!

Myisha: Use it! Use it, and utilize the many, many options that we have now for stimulating. So if your hand gets tired, or your mouth gets tired, we have a lot of different tools.

Heather: Yes! I just posted on my story the other day, because I was watching this show, and this guy in the show came really quick and was like, oh, sorry, sorry, sorry! And just was like apologizing profusely, and then sex ended. And it just really upset me. So I immediately posted on my story. I was like, first of all stop apologizing so much because I feel like that implies you think your penis is everything here, like it is everything, but like you were just saying, like they are getting their most sensitive part of their body stimulated by penetrating you and like sure it's kind of cool! But like most of us need something else. Most of us with vaginas need something else to feel as good as you're feeling so like, stop apologizing so much, just get down to business and maybe start doing something else. I think it was in Come As You Are she said that penetration for most cis women is, it can be compared to playing with a guy's balls, like sure it feels good, but it probably will not make you come and that felt like the most accurate. I was like finally! Because I thought forever I was supposed to be getting more pleasure from this because it is so the center of porn and movies and everything. It's, you know, they, they have penetrative sex for thirty seconds, and then both of them come at the same time. And it's just like, should I be feeling like that? Is something up with me? But no!

Myisha: You've been fed lies. We've all been fed lies!

Heather: Yes.

Myisha: And I want to make room for the women out there or people with vulvas who are like, I love penetrative sex, I'm always gonna get off from penetrative sex. Yes, you exist. Live your truth. It is, I'm one of those people too. I mean, you know, there's, whatever, I have a very robust orgasm spectrum, okay!

Heather Chelan: I'm so jealous.

Myisha: I'm not in this line of work for nothing, but at the same time, you know, a lot of this comes down to individual variation, you know, and like, that's really what we should be focusing on. And the fact that we really don't see individual variation in media, then we're not really absorbing the nuances of what could be possible for our own experiences. And that's, that's a disservice as well.

Heather: That is — that that's such a good point. I want to take that with me moving forward with like, all media I create, and like, when I start acting more and being in movies, like I want that to really be a focus of any type of sex scene, the like, yeah, individualism. I love that so much. That was great.

Myisha: Yeah, yeah, you got to give a little something that's like a nuance that people need to see.

Heather: Yeah and I'll just take this moment to tell anybody who wants to hook up with me in the future who's hearing this, do not ask me to sit on your face! I fucking told you I don't like to do that. Don't say that you do it better. I've tried it. Okay? Stop asking me to do that. Listen to me! God!

Myisha: Well, I'm so glad that you have opened up about that because I have some personal questions to ask you. All right, awesome. There are a few of them. You get to choose one, two or three. It's up to you. So how do you feel about that?

Heather: I love oversharing.

Myisha: You love oversharing, okay, great! So, here are your choices.

Heather: Okay.

Myisha: A. What's the first thing you do after a breakup? B. Who was your first crush? You don't have to tell names, but you can just tell like, who they were and what they were about and why you liked them. C. What is the biggest sexual hang up you've personally overcome?

Heather: Okay, I'll go with the, I'll go with C, Pat!

Myisha: We need a little buzzer!

Heather Chelan: I know, bing, bing, bing! Okay, a personal sexual hang up that I have overcome. I grew up with a lot of sexual shame. Growing up in a religious household, we were told to wait till marriage but didn't really talk a lot about it. That was just kind of it. Just wait till marriage. I wore a purity ring all through middle school and high school, I was like about it, and went to like the sex talk every year at church. We had like a guy come in and like read his book, and I'd bring my friends and I had like a sign on my wall that was like, 10 reasons to wait till marriage, and you know, of course, if that works for someone out there, that's great for you. It did not work for me. It brought a lot of shame into my life. And I was sexual from a young age I started having having crushes, to answer kind of your other question, started having crushes in like preschool. And it felt like, I'm supposed to just push this down until I get married? And then of course, I had sex before marriage because I'm human and had a boyfriend who was so hot, and skateboarded, and had tattoos and smoked cigarettes. I'm like, you expect me to not have sex with him? Are you kidding me? So of course I did. And I just felt really guilty. And I would like roll over and cry after a lot of the time, like I felt really bad about myself. And then that also led to me not figuring out what I wanted and what I liked, because it felt like well, I shouldn't even be doing this at all. So kind of like as little as I can get in there, like, oh okay, I'm having sex, and then I can pull away, but I'm not like masturbating a lot to figure out what I like or having good, open, open and honest conversations with him, because we just shouldn't even really be talking about this at all. So anyway. And then I ended up getting married. And I'm divorced now. And that shame carried through our marriage and led to a lot of fights around sex and we were just mismatched. And it was, it was because I was coming from a place of trauma. And it was, it was just kind of hard to work through. And then by the time we got divorced, I no longer believed that sex was something that just had to be saved till marriage, so since then I've been exploring in new ways, and I can one hundred percent say, I feel no shame around, like, I have sex and I feel completely fine in that regard at least, you know? Like, I don't feel like oh, no, I've just sinned or, or, like ruined my chances of going to heaven or anything like that. So I feel really proud of myself for that.

Myisha: Absolutely, as you should!

Heather Chelan: Thank you.

Myisha: It's, it's like the biggest compliment for me when I work with clients who have a similar background and experience with when like, at the end, they're like, no shame! Like, don't feel any shame and I'm like, oh my gosh, this, this whole, talking about and acknowledging your sexuality and, like, coming into comfort and acceptance is transformative. So I want anybody who is listening to this, who might be struggling with some of those feelings of shame around sex, specifically from, you know, a religious kind of upbringing that has pretty dogmatic ideas about when and how sex should take place like this is, you know, it, it impacts people. It impacts people tremendously, and not just in their sex life, but that's often where people feel, feel it the most. And so I'm really, really glad that you have done the work to get to the other side and have shame free sex!

Heather Chelan: Thank you! It's like, oh, so this is what y'all been doing? Like I just, I just showed up to the party a little late, but they're like, welcome!

Myisha: You're here, you're here!

Heather Chelan: Can I get you a drink? Yeah! Yeah, it feels really good, and I'm stoked about it.

Myisha: So great. Thank you so much for being here. Where can people find you if they want to avail themselves of your wonderful videos and everything that you're up to?

Heather: Yes, yeah, so you can find me on Instagram and I suppose TikTok and YouTube at Heb On The Web. And yeah, I post little like funny comedic musical numbers about little observations I make, but also dabbling a little bit more. Hopefully you'll start seeing me on the silver screen a little sooner than later. I'm around doing improv around LA. If you're in the scene, say what's up! Yeah, I've just anything comedic and fun, just I'll be there.

Myisha: Yes, we want to support you.

Heather: I appreciate that. Appreciate that.

Myisha: All right. Thanks so much, Heather!

Heather: Thank you! Thanks so much for having me.

Myisha: And thank you for listening! This season we're trying something new. We love hearing your questions, but we also want to hear your stories. Pride is coming up, so for the whole next month we want to hear stories about your queer hookups. The messy, the good, the awkward, all of it. So as you're out and celebrating, send us a voice memo at sex life at kcrw dot org.

CREDITS

Myisha: ‘How's Your Sex Life?’ is a KCRW original podcast. Our producer is Andrea Bautista. Our executive producer is Gina Delvac. This episode was recorded and mixed by Phil Richards. Our music was created by Carolyn Pennypacker Riggs. Special thanks to Women's Audio Mission, Arnie Seipel, and Jennifer Ferro. And last but not least, a big shout out to our voice actors. We'll let them introduce themselves on the way out.

VO 1: I'm Zacile Rosette. Thanks for listening!

VO 2: This is Angie Perrin. Be sure to follow the show and share it with a friend.