Dating and fatphobia full transcript

Myisha Battle: What's your best, top tip for vetting for fatphobes?

Virgie Tovar: I would say for me things really changed when I set a very, very clear boundary that was zero tolerance. And I said, anybody who talks about my body or how I eat is gone.

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Myisha: Welcome back to KCRW's How's Your Sex Life, your sex and dating survival guide. I'm your host Myisha Battle and I'm here to tell you that everyone deserves to discover who they are as sexual beings. Even if that means discovering not being into sex at all, or certain kinds of sex. There are as many ways to be sexual as there are people on this planet. And, sexual discovery and celebrating what we find along the way is a human right. Today, we're going to hear from listeners who need advice on facing fatphobia in the dating world and getting over someone you've never dated. And I'm here today with Virgie Tovar. Hey Virgie!

Virgie: Hi!

Myisha: So good to have you. We are very excited to have you as an expert guest for some of our questions today.

Virgie: I'm excited to be here.

Myisha: Okay, we have so much to talk about today. This is going to be a two parter. Are you ready?

Virgie: Oh, I'm ready.

Myisha: Let's go! As an author, your work is all about ending weight based discrimination and celebrating larger bodies. So I'm excited to have you here to support our question askers today, some of them are your followers. So you put a call out to them. And some of them responded bravely.

Virgie: Yes!

Myisha: But before we get into that, I have a question for you.

Virgie: Yes.

Myisha: How's your sex life?

Virgie: Oh, my goodness. I mean, I guess I would, I would say, Hmm, I'm like, what's the word that I would use? I think I'm like, I'm newly married, but I'm also like, six years into this relationship. And so I would say we're in the, what I would consider like, six years and what I think is kind of normal for a sex life, which is like, it's low effort. It is cute. It's like playful, and sometimes, like gross. And, there's, like, I've been having a lot of sex dreams, which has been kind of, that's something that's a theme I'm sure we'll discuss later, but, since my late 30s, I'm 42 now, the sex dreams have been out of control. I think what's amazing, and in a good way, what's amazing is kind of like I have this partner who I can just like poke and just be like, you don't need to be awake. Don't do anything. I just want to live out this sex dream with you right now. So yeah, I think I guess the word that comes to mind is like, it's kind of like, lazy or like that's the word. But it's like a sweet, it's like a sweet laziness.

Myisha: I was gonna say varied.

Virgie: Yeah

Myisha: And I don't know, I guess when you say varied, it kind of maybe brings up like, acrobatic and like, energetic. And lazy is not that so? I don't know. Yeah, low effort.

Virgie: Yeah, it's low effort. But it's like, there's this, I think there's a comfort that maybe is coded as like negative. And this is a comfort that I code as like, what is it like to be fully accepted as someone who's sometimes very, very horny, and sometimes not at all horny, sometimes looking like super, like, you know what I mean? Like super snatched, like looking really good. And then sometimes really, like looking pretty, like oily. And then, but it's and it's all fine. You know? And that's like, really good.

Myisha: Amazing. Okay. Varied low effort. Lazy. Fulfilling.

Virgie: Yes. Yeah.

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Myisha: Sounds very fulfilling. Amazing. Okay. Let's get started. As a reminder, our questions are voiced by actors to keep everyone anonymous. Let's listen to our first question.

Question 1: Hey Myisha, how do I get over someone who I never dated? I had a huge crush on them, but my feelings weren't reciprocated and I feel stuck. Please help. I just want to move on.

Myisha: I love this question. Because I've been there. I've been there many times. And I love that this question asker just says, I just want to move on. So what do you think about this question?

Virgie: Yeah, I mean, I think, I immediately think about being a plus size woman. And I think there's this phenomenon because of the level of fatphobia in our culture, where I have been in and I've known many, many, many plus size women friends, not to presume this person is a woman but like it's it's tapping into memories I have about plus sized women friends, around being in these nonsexual, but extremely emotional relationships. It's sort of like this unspoken, don't ask, don't tell, like, this person is spending all their time with me, this person is calling on me whenever they have a big moment in their life, like a promotion or a devastation like a loss. We spend a lot of time together and yet there's sort of this vibrational understanding that sex is not on the table and that if sex was brought up, that this would shatter everything. They would lose the whole relationship. And so this question, I'm not presuming that's what happened with this person, but it's just tapping into these memories and the moments I've had to sit down with those friends and you know, have friends sit down with me and just sort of say, like, this is not okay. But specifically to get more to kind of this general question, I think about like, how there's a societal understanding of what a quote unquote legitimate relationship is. And I think there's another human reality that's very subjective, that's about this felt like a relationship. Even if that person never gave you a sign, like in these situations I'm talking about where like, they're literally spending all their time with this person, but they're not having sex. Even if you didn't have that, it doesn't mean that you didn't have an experience that brought up all of the physiological, psychological, emotional things that come with a relationship. And so, I immediately just think the first thing that's really important to move on is like the grief and letting yourself have that experience, in the same way that like, you know, again, when is a culturally recognized relationship, there are mechanisms in place socially, and even like cards, like there are literal physical artifacts in our culture, for when your relationship ends. And then there are social etiquette and things like that. And that might not be something unfortunately, like, if you're not in a socially recognized relationship, you're not getting any of that. And it can feel very belittling, it can feel very gaslighty, and it can make you feel like, I'm just like a weird bananas person, right? Like, I just made all this up and none of this is real, I just want to move on. And at the end of the day, I think what moving on entails is the grief process, which is something we all know, and we've all seen that, right? Like, kind of like not moving on from one relationship to another without processing any emotions, we kind of all have heard that that's probably not the best idea, right? For most people. And I think for this, it's like, it's not going to be this tidy, like putting it up in a package, throwing it in the garbage and putting it outside. It's going to involve validating all these feelings, and validating them as like, you know, things that matter and feelings that were real, and that there's a side of our emotional selves that have nothing to do with like other people, you know?

Myisha: Absolutely. Yeah, as you were talking, I was thinking about like, the messiness of like having to define certain types of relationships, like whole ass marriages end because of emotional affairs.

Virgie: Right, yeah.

Myisha: You know? No sex involved, just like, someone decided to be intimately involved with someone else. And it was so real and impacted their relationships so much, right? So that's something to kind of consider as like, a litmus test or a gauge of like, how powerful these things can be not only on you know, an individual felt level, but the ripple effect that it can have in your life of, you know, having these strong emotions for somebody and then realizing that that's not going to be an option for you anymore. So grief is right. The grief, the grief process is what this person I think needs to lean into, because their feelings are very, very real.

Virgie: Yeah. Yeah. And I'm thinking like, what does that look like? I love one of my friends is a death midwife. And so, she does this like, the end of a relationship is a type of death, and, you know, she has all these tools that she's taught me. Like, obviously, there's things we all know about, like journaling and talking to friends or talking to if you have like somebody who you work with on your mental health, but it can also be things like, my favorite one is she recommends baking a grief cake. Which is like, you basically bake a cake, whatever kind of cake you want, and you like scream and wail and cry as you're baking. Like, you put it all in the ingredients, right? It's like you're making the cake and you're like, wailing, screaming, like whatever you need to do like, expletives like stuff listening to music, right and screaming along, dancing along singing along with it. And then when the cake is done, you kind of like put a photograph or something or like a symbol of this person who you've lost on the cake and then you kind of like have this sort of moment where you're like, there's a physical manifestation of this, of this feeling and of this person and like what all of that meant. And then you, you get to eat the cake as well, which is so good and delicious. So maybe like I'm like, yes, grief, and also perhaps a grief cake can go along with this. Yeah.

Myisha: I think that's where we'll leave this. We're gonna take a quick break. So take a bite of your grief cake. And when we come back, we'll talk about the challenges of dating cis men as a fat woman.

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Myisha: And we're back. Our next question is from one of your followers about dating as a plus sized person.

Question 2: Hi! So, I'm a happy 38-year-old fem fatty in therapy, and 10 years into my fat liberation journey. And I'm still struggling to find quality partners. My biggest problem is I tend to date cis men, though not exclusively. And often fatphobia is our unwelcome third wheel. Do you have any thoughts or tips on how I can find a partner who will join me where I am to build a fun and uplifting relationship instead of temporary and disappointing ones?

Myisha: I just have to plug your work on this because I've actually been reading your work since Ravishly.

Virgie: Yes. Oh, my gosh, yeah.

Myisha: You had so many good posts about this, because that was a, it seemed like a time in your life where you were navigating a lot of dating woes. And there was a lot of nuance to what you had to, what you had to share, that for me, was new. So I'm just gonna give you the floor.

Virgie: Okay. Yeah. I mean, I like God, I feel like this is almost like this is a dissertation like, right? On the one hand, the answer to this is a dissertation. I guess I'll start at the highest level, which like the theoretical social level, which we always have to be aware of. Right, like, because that's, you know, to use the parlance of this question, that is the third wheel. Society is a third wheel in all of our relationships. And it's just like, there sitting there, sometimes helping, but usually not.

Myisha: Usually just gumming up the work, creating a mess that we have to clean up.

Virgie: Yes one hundred percent.

Myisha: Pooping on our feelings.

Virgie: It's just bad. Um, so but I mean, I think about like one of my mentors, Michelle Tea, like one of the things, we had this like, beautiful conversation once where, she's someone who is queer, but she did a lot of street dating with cis men when she was younger. I remember once we were talking, we were talking about my dating woes, and she kind of leaned it in and she was like, you know, what I find so strange about like, straight dating, is that like, you're supposed to walk into this acting like it's not weird to interact with cis men. And it is, because they're weird. And, she's like, I think it's like this open secret that like, if you're straight dating, you're just not supposed to, like say it. And I think there's something that really confuses people, when that isn't where you start. Like, I think for me, and I've been thinking about, I've been wanting to write this like very, very long article about the things that like feminism, it didn't, like if you're someone who dates cis men or you know, marries a cis man or wants to marry a cis man, like, this kind of feminism didn't really equip us to be intimate with cis men. And especially those who aren't one hundred percent aligned with that political ideology or who don't live in those identities. And I think that when we start from this place of like, this is gonna be weird and this is going to have challenges and this is going to be almost like exposure therapy. And I think for me to get to the point where I was really dating cis men and not just like, verbally abusing them for an hour and a half until they left during dates. It took me that point to be like, oh, this is about, I need to presume discomfort from jump. Now what's challenging is when discomfort is there from the beginning, how do you know when you've crossed the line into I'm uncomfortable because this is a cis dude and I'm uncomfortable because this isn't a match, this person doesn't have the values, this person doesn't respect me? It's really hard. And this is like, we have to say it right, this misogyny, right? Just like gaslighting us like, doing all kinds of like, you're already confused, how do you know if you're A kind of confused or B kind? Are you the A, normal kind of cisgender man, confused or like the B, this person is super toxic, I need to get away from them? I think it messes with our intuitions. I think what's challenging is like, there's a component of learning how to navigate that nuance, especially at the beginning of a relationship because there's a unique flavor of like dating when you're in a plus size body, but there's also just dating stuff that I feel like, I wasn't well equipped for just as a woman who dates cis men. So the advice I wish that I had gotten was like when you're dating, you need to know when you've hit a wall, when you've hit a limit, like you're at an emotional 10, you are pissed, and rightly so for good reason, most likely. And all you want to do is get back on the horse and just get this over with. But what you need to do is actually stop and you need to take the time and have the feelings and learn the lessons that are coming out of this experience, feel all those emotions. And then, when you're like, in a place where your cup is full again, you need to go back in there. And I think what's hard is like what we, what I really needed was more support networks. I needed more people who I could vent to about the date, who I could vent to about these weird relationships, and things like that. So I think like A, opening up the timeline and creating more spaciousness for yourself and for the relationship. I think going re that, lengthening the information gathering phase of dating, which again, like when it's a cis man, what's really hard is you've got this heteronormative timeline of when sex is supposed to occur. And again, this is all, this is rape culture. This is like misogyny. This is like all these things, right? So I know the feeling and you also might be horny, right? Like you might also like, you've got like this going on, you've got this, this pressure over here, you've got your own body being like, do it, right? But I think what's, and no shame to that at all, but I think when we're talking about compartmentalizing, right, like, this is someone I'm trying to date. You might have your folks who are like, this is my horny person who I do stuff with, but like, you know, they need to be in different kind of categories. In an ideal world, all these things are all together, there's no boxes and stuff like that. But I think this is important for your self care, to sort of say like, if I want to go on a date, if I want to date this person, this is what the timeline is gonna look like. I need to have this much information before we're like going into a level that, for you personally, starts to feel like you're getting into that vulnerability stage. For some people that isn't sex, for some people it is. So I think like figuring out where are your benchmarks like, we can do this, this, this and this before things start to feel really escalated and I started to feel commitment. And like giving yourself all the space you need in that like chapter one, if you will. I have so much more to say. But I'm going to stop there for now. Cuz I think that's like some good stuff.

Myisha: It's so good. There were a lot of nuggets in there that I share with my clients. This actually came up in a client session yesterday. I was working with a black woman and I was asking her what her vetting process was. Much to my motherfucking surprise, which I think maybe I did this when I was dating, but I don't know. She was like, if it's a white man, here are my criteria. They must at least identify as liberal.

Virgie: Right.

Myisha: Right politically, and then I proceed, right. Like her vetting was, she's also an attorney so I feel like very detail oriented, just about the facts, like, what are you saying about yourself, sir. And then if she can glean anything else about like, anti racism or like, you know, just generally politically aware in ways that she wants a partner to be, she may proceed. If it is a black man, she is a little more lenient, and is like, listen, you can be black and a little, you can be moderate, not conservative. But like moderate is still probably going to get me where I want to go with a black man. And I was like, wow, the calculus that we have to do,

Virgie: Yeah

Myisha: just to provide ourselves with a basic sense of safety going into dating environments. And, that doesn't even guarantee that we're going to get it, right?

Virgie: One hundred percent.

Myisha: So for this person, I was thinking about, like, the need for and maybe we can collaborate on this. A harm reduction manual for dating cis men.

Virgie: Yeah, totally.

Myisha: Because I fully agree. It's like, first acknowledge that like, this process is gonna suck because we're dealing with cis men, unfortunately. And I do tell my clients that all the time, I'm like, and they constantly are like, you know, they say it's a controversial statement, but a lot of them feel that if they could choose to be a lesbian they would right? You know, like, they're very frustrated by their choices and the situations and the double binds that they find themselves in, happening to be on this planet as someone who is attracted to cis men. So, you know, putting in these, like vetting processes early on, is a layer of harm reduction. Taking your time with the process is another layer of harm reduction. When you talk about having different options on the table for yourself, I love that. Can you talk to me a little bit about like, people who are going to pass up this particular dater because they are fat, right? The fatphobic people. Your thoughts on like vetting that out? Like, what are your thoughts about that when it comes to finding a sex buddy for someone who is dating, as a plus sized person?

Virgie: Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, to begin with, I think back to the words of an old friend, and I remember, she said, you know, when you make the call that you're not dating fatphobes anymore, or that you're actively vetting fatphobes, it might feel going back to the word grief, it might feel like oh, my god who's left? Who's left in such a fatphobic society? And I think that that grief is real, I think that pool is bigger than we believe it is, And, I love what she said, which was more options doesn't mean more good options. And I felt like oh my god, she really tapped into something here. Right? Because like, and I want to say like, anecdotally, I remember, before I understood fatphobia. And before I started setting limits around fatphobia, which I'll talk about my boundaries changed when I became a fat activist around dating. But before that, I remember kind of this feeling of like, whenever I would meet kind of this person who was felt really perfect, quote, unquote, and then they were a fatphobe. I felt like, Oh, my God, if only I were thin, I could be with this perfect person. Rather than thinking, a person who actively, like has fatphobia and acts on fatphobia, like that is not perfect, they're in fact, a bigot. And I don't want it, I should protect myself from bigots, it was a major mind shift. Because like that, that first one is like the internalized fatphobia. Like, it's just like longing for people who want to reject us. And when we get into that, when we can cross that line into, like, I need to protect myself from people who act that way. Obviously, it's just such a different, it's such a like, shift of like, how you think about dating and how you think about these, like so called, what we've been taught is like the perfect partner. I think one of the first things I did, I remember, like I learned about fat activism at a conference, basically, and it was like that same weekend, I said, I'm not dating anyone anymore, who has anything to say about my body or about how I eat. And I don't care how many dates we've been on, if they have shit to say about either of those things, it's over. And it was kind of like a zero tolerance and it felt like an emotional shift had happened inside, like my cells change. And to begin with, one of the things that was wild, this is what happens when you like, have a boundary that is fully integrated, right? Because boundaries are interesting. Boundaries can live up here in your brain and then there's like a moment where sometimes, you know, and sometimes boundaries never become integrated. And I find that when it gets to that integration, fully integration stage, those people who have maybe been flooding you, they just go away. I don't even know how to explain it. It's like some kind of weird magic is like alchemical, like you have now this pheromone that they like think is stinky, and they used to be like, all up in your DMS and now they're like, gone you know. And so for me, you know, I was still left with vetting people. I'm like, okay, great. I've got a baseline of like, people who respect and see fat people as human beings, and people who can, like admit to themselves and to others, that they're attracted to fat people. You know, right? Like, a lot of people are attracted to fat people, but like whether or not they'll publicly, like come forward with that because of the stigma is a different story. But yeah, I think for me, it was like, okay, so now I've gotten rid of the people who are like, you know, not doing that. But I'm still grappling with the people who are like, I am saying, I want a relationship and I just really want to have sex with you. So it's like it that didn't end the journey, but I think for me, it was like having those boundaries. And I think even when the boundary is not integrated, like this integration process is really cool and whatever, but like, I think that even if a boundary is more intellectual like, like, not totally sure. Like, I don't know, if I really, think I should do, like, you know, boundaries can live in that, like, I'm not quite sure if I can actually ask for this from others slash the world. That's okay. A lot of us live in that place. In that case, what's more intellectual, the planning is really important. So like writing it down, having your document, right, that's like, what does this look like? What does it look like when I'm looking for a partner who isn't actively engaging in fatphobia? How am I going to be able to tell like, how would a third party be able to tell that or how am I gonna be able to tell that? And I think, you know, that's another tool. And I think looking outside of it, where it's like, okay, would I be cool with like buddying up with someone who's like, I don't date people of color. I don't date people with disabilities. I think like learning how that part, like, if they're a fatphobe, they're likely these other things, too. And so kind of like, again, the protection. You want to be protected from that. You don't want to be like, you know, scratching at the door of like someone who's kind of a dirtbag no matter how society presents this person, right? Because there's lots of dirtbags we've been taught to like lust after and these people are when you kind of look at what is like, what is integrity? What are the values that matter to me in a partner? They don't pass that test. I think the last thing when I say it's like, values, right? Like, I think what's important is like, when you're in a marginalized body, sometimes it can feel like my values don't matter, what's the point of even interrogating these things because like, I'm not desirable, let's say, and I'm like, at the end of the day, these are your Northstar. If you feel like dating a person who doesn't discriminate on the basis of someone's body size or other characteristics like that, if that's a value that you have, stick to that value. And I think these are really, really important things because at the end of the day, at some point in the relationship, those values are going to have to be there. And so may as well do it at the beginning, like because you're not going to get into year four and like be able to survive, your relationship will not survive no value alignment, you know. So like, thinking about, I think with all this, it goes back to spaciousness and time and like, is this something that I want four years down the road? And if not, how am I containing my emotions, taking care of myself doing like all my sort of protection stuff? Yeah.

Myisha: Vigorous head nodding over here.

Virgie: Yeah

Myisha: Yes, take a water break. You just dropped some serious knowledge to our question asker and I hope that that is helpful in guiding them through what is a very difficult process. We just can, just say it's hard and you gave so many amazing places to critically, you know, interrogate oneself and, also so much beautiful support that there are people out there, which I fully believe to, because I've seen that in my work as well. There are people out there for you, there just are and the world makes us believe that there aren't. But I also really wanted to echo how you had wished that you had that support network, which is something I also recommend for clients, like get your team around you during this process. And you know, be able to tell them what your intentions are so that they can support you, reinforce what you said to them like when you are down and we're willing to like settle for some bullshit, they can hold you accountable and say, no, no, no, we're not doing this again. We know that you are going to find somebody, so they'll be able to lift you up.

Virgie: Spirit fingers

Myisha: Spirit fingers all around.

Virgie: Wait, I feel like I have to add one more thing, is that okay?

Myisha: Absolutely.

Virgie: I mean, one thing that I often come up against when I'm talking with plus size clients who date cis men about this issue, we always come up against this phrase, which I know you probably have heard a lot which is "high quality match."

Myisha: Ugh, I just,

Virgie: I know, high quality match.

Myisha: I get goose bumps in a bad way.

Virgie: Yeah,

Myisha: I hate it so much.

Virgie: It's a very coded phrase. That means very specific things.

Myisha: Yeah.

Virgie: We kind of like all know what they are right and like, and again, if you're like a straight woman you've been socialized to seek this high quality matters. We have to understand that we have programming too. Just like cis men have poopoo like programming, like, you know, if you have a history of dating cis men, like you have your own stuff, we have our own stuff, to deconstruct. So I feel like, whenever I ask I'm like, what does that mean to you? They don't ever want to say, right? Because they know that when we get past that kind of coded language, that it's deeply problematic, right? And this kind of concept of the high quality match actually is like, goes milk and cookies with fatphobia.

Myisha: Say more about what they're not saying when they use the word high quality match.

Virgie: I mean, I think that honestly, the very first thing I think that they're talking about is income.

Myisha: Yeah.

Virgie: And I mean, again, I think like, what's so interesting, I could go so deep into this, like, there's all this research that shows that straight women have been socialized to find a partner who makes more money than them. And that's just like, and right and we also have all the resources that numerically those partners aren't there. Like, it turns out that when you take all the barriers away from women's success, we just kill it at everything. Yeah, you know, and like, so now we're like, we have overtaken men. First time solo homeownership, you know, graduate degrees, like all these things, right? So it's like, those numbers aren't there. So we're talking about grief. I'm like, girl, not only is the fantasy, problematic and toxic, the numbers don't work out for you. For us, right? So there isn't this huge number of like, quote, unquote, high quality matches to like, align with the straight women who want that person. But it's important to understand, right, like, again, I think going back to like, high quality match and the coded language that's around class and race and ability and also body size, understanding that, like, you know, those things need to be interrogated as well. Because that high quality match, when you think about that person on paper, they're just likelier to be a fatphobe because they're likelier to be an assimilationist in general. They're likelier to be someone who believes highly in social normativity as a path to success, because that's what success is, success to who? Successes society, right. And I think for plus size women, what's important to understand is the stakes of that high quality match, they're higher than like a straight woman, because we're being told that no man of quality would want us. And so I think there's the sense where this is where, like, marginalization becomes this trap that eats us alive, right? Like we've got this society that's like predatorily taking so much from us, and then we're internalizing it and predating on ourselves, too. And so, I think I understand that when I think about these clients, I'm talking about right, like, I get it. They're literally, this is not, the stakes are not just about heteronormativity, they're about her worth and what her body can quote unquote, get her in this culture. And I think that these are like really deep questions that to be fair, I think a lot of times, like lesser marginalized people, they don't have to do this work. And I know that's not fair. But it's like I think this labor speaks to like, the deeper spiritual work that marginalized people are often drawn to and whether we want to you know, whether we want to be or not, you know.

Myisha: Yeah, yes, it's the endless calculus. It never stops. We do not get a break from it.

Virgie: Yeah.

Myisha: The way that some people probably do, where they're just like, yeah, well, you know, I just matched and had a few dates and it was fine.

Virgie: Yes.

Myisha: Yeah. Virgie, we have way more to cover. Will you stay around for part two?

Virgie: One hundred percent.

MUSIC

Myisha: Great. Next time on How's Your Sex Life? Perimenopause. And I answer Virgie's questions about masturbating in the sun and what happens when she's ramping up the Hitachi to the highest settings.

Virgie: I went to the three and then the three wasn't really working and then the four started to feel like, okay, I'm bumping up against a frontier that's beginning to terrify me. So, I'm like, is my pussy dead?! Is it time to panic?! [Laughter]

Myisha: It's not time to panic. What is happening is also probably a result of perimenopause and hormonal fluctuations.

Myisha: If you want advice about sex or dating, remember to drop us an email or voice memo at sex life at kcrw dot org. We'll keep you anonymous.

CREDITS

Myisha: How's Your Sex Life is a KCRW original podcast. Our producer is Andrea Bautista. Our executive producer is Gina Delvac. This episode was mixed by Hope Brush. Our music was created by Carolyn Pennypacker Riggs. Special thanks to Women's Audio Mission, Arnie Seipel and Jennifer Ferro and a big shout out to our voice actors. We'll let them introduce themselves on the way out.

VO 1: This is Emma Rothenberg. Thanks for listening!

VO 2: This is Andrea Bautista. See you next week for another episode of How's Your Sex Life.