Yearning for love Full Episode Transcript

adrienne maree brown: For me, sex is too important to be one of the things around which I'm compromising. It can be a space in which I'm exploring. It can be a space which we're learning together, but it can't be a space where I'm just, like, I'm just unsatisfied, and that's just the reality.

Myisha: Right.

adrienne: That's not for me.

Myisha: No.

adrienne: That's not for me and I don't think it's for most people.

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Myisha Battle: Welcome back to KCRW's How's Your Sex Life? Your sex and dating survival guide. I'm your host Myisha Battle and I'm here to remind you that we can always do better in our relationships. Our past mistakes do not define our futures. Today, we're going to hear your questions about course correcting as a cis man and finding sexual freedom, and I'm here today with adrienne maree brown. Hey, adrienne.

adrienne maree brown: Hey Myisha.

Myisha: Thank you so much for being here.

adrienne: Thanks for having me.

Myisha: So excited.

adrienne: I'm so glad you hold this space.

Myisha: Me too! Me too. We got some amazing questions from your audience, and I had one special one that I was holding for you, because I think that you will lend a lot to this discussion. You're an activist, you're a best selling author, and your most recent book, "Loving Corrections" is about the importance of holding ourselves, our loved ones and our communities accountable in order to create honest relationships. You and I have been in conversation before over the years, so I really do appreciate what you have to offer, and I'm just so stoked to have you here today. So before we get into those questions, I have a question for you.

adrienne: Beautiful.

Myisha: How's your sex life?

adrienne: Right now, it is abundant, and I've actually been in an interesting phase. I think for a long time I held a narrative of being unsatisfiable and constantly like, you know, no one can, no one can meet my appetite, or no one can do exactly what I need, or all these things. And I, for a little while, was talking to a kink coach, and just like going and being like, what, what is, what are all, what is the whole range of options, and how do you ask for them, and how do you negotiate what you need, in all this. Now I have two core people that I am lovers with, and I still have, like, this really active, spiritual sexual relationship with myself. So I'm like, constantly like, how am I nourishing my own sexual relationship with myself? And how am I exploring and staying curious and open to what's possible with these other people. And it's blowing my mind, what happens when it's not a scarcity mode, when it's like, okay, now there's almost too much, and I have to navigate, you know, like I've been doing like, I'm like, oh, I actually need, like, psychically, a day between deep dives with people. I actually need a day for myself. I actually need certain rituals between lovers. And so I'm learning a lot about, like, what does my body actually want, what does my spirit actually want, in terms of these connections. And I also, I don't know if this is like, you know, growing out of hoe phase into some other phase, but there's something about the emotional connection now that is really profound in terms of what my sexual experiences are like, and some of that might also be my physical abilities have changed. So, you know, I used to be the girl who's like, I'm gonna do this, I'm gonna do that, I'm gonna bup bup, bup, bup, bup, bup, blow your mind in all these, like, physical ways. But my ability has shifted. You know, my I've got arthritis in my knees. I can't do all the bouncy bounce, whatever magic that I used to do. So I'm having to really get creative and energetic and be like, okay, like, how do we actually build up a charge between us that can really mutually take us to another place, and the body is a part of that, but in some ways, it feels decentered, and the connection and the pleasure now feels at the center. So it's really dynamic, really fun, you know.

Myisha: And you're still learning.

adrienne: And I'm still learning, and that feels like my favorite part that I'm like, I'm a 46 year old, and every day I feel like I learn a new thing about pleasure.

Myisha: Yes. Well, with that, I would love to jump into our first question. And just as a reminder, our questions are voiced by actors to keep everyone anonymous.

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Question 1: Hi Myisha, I’ve recently discovered your podcast and have found listening back fascinating. It’s been helpful in contextualizing my experiences and desires. A common theme that I have heard is a general discomfort or criticism that your listeners and guests have with cis heterosexual men. I’ve heard that we are “scary.” I’ve heard we are fatphobic. It seems to feed into a narrative, that I’ve unfortunately internalized to a degree, that cis hetero men are cruel, vain, untrustworthy, predatory, etcetera. This internal narrative has historically contributed to lowering my self confidence and slowing my attempts at flirtation and courtship. I don’t think it’s a stretch to suggest it may have contributed to several missed connections in the past. I am a single cis hetero man in his early 30s who would like to flirt with and court women. What advice do you have on not allowing this narrative to take control and slow me down? What sort of behavior should I avoid to help me not come off as just another scary, predatory, fatphobic cis hetero man?

adrienne: Oh, I love this question. I love the tenderness in it. I hear the longing for connection and the longing to do things in a good way. I'll say two things, and then Myisha, I'm curious to see also for you. The first thing that came up for me is acknowledging that these are not narratives, but systems, right? So, you know, for me, it's like a little switch that flips where I'm like, some things are like a story that's being told, and some things are like a reality we're living in, a system we're actually living in. And I think for a lot of men, they're like, Why? Why do some people have this story that we're like this, right? As opposed to being like how do I navigate this system I was born into and recognize that like, women don't have a story that men are fatphobic. Women are surviving men's fatphobia. Women don't have a story that men are violent. Women's number one, most dangerous, most likely killer, most likely assailant, most likely cause of domestic violence, harm are men, men that we're intimate with. So I think one of the first things is to sort of be like, oh, I recognize that this is the reality I live in as a 30 something year old man. I was born into a system in which I'm supposed to have power over women, and I'm supposed to do it in these ways, making them feel insecure about their bodies, making them feel like their bodies are for my consumption, making them feel like I'm supposed to have power over their bodies, whether they can reproduce or not, all these things. That's a system that I was born into, and I actually want to upend that system, right. The man that I am most intimate with is someone who I know is constantly trying to upend that system, in himself, in the relationships he has with all the women in his life, and in the relationship that he has with me. Okay, and so I'm not constantly like trying to course correct him, or be like, let me slip some feminism into your morning coffee. I'm like, oh, you did your own reading. You understand the system, and so you see me as an equal. And that's one thing that women can give you feedback on, is, you know, you can ask this. It's like, do you feel like I truly see you? Do you feel like I truly respect you? How can I grow like what you know, at the micro level, don't just roll with a bunch of men out through the world trying to figure out how to date women like, build some friendships with women to help give you some of this guidance. And then I also recommend going to places where people are actively trying to date and connect, so I think that's one of the things that now it feels like, we have much more structural spaces where it's like, this is a speed dating place, this is singles getting together to do this. These are places where people are looking for certain kinds of connections. And I highly recommend doing that off the apps, going into physical spaces where you can have a lot of these experiences really rapidly, so you can start to, like, really pick up on, oh, what are some of the patterns that play out with me and folks who are also trying to date, but I think that that is one of the biggest things, because I'm, like, if I'm at the gas station, I'm not trying to be courted. I'm trying to fill up my tank, just like you are, you know, essentially so you get gas. I too get gas. And I think one of the, one of the most fundamental misunderstandings of men is that any woman anywhere is potentially prey for him, or potentially someone who's looking for that kind of connection. One more thing is, and this is again, a simple, simple error that a lot of men make, a lot of men in order to find out if women are available or interested or whatever, start by trying to ask questions about who they already belong to. Oh, do you have a boyfriend? You know, I just recently took a trip for my birthday, and someone was trying to hit on me, and they were like, your man should be here driving you around. Your man should be the one doing this. Your man should be doing, and just pushing and pushing and pushing, right? Now, I'm like, honey, I got a man. I got a woman. I got everything I need. I don't need anything from you, but I don't want to have to explain any of that to you, because I'm out here trying to mind my business, right? But that probing around who owns me already is the number one first way to turn, like, if that's the place you start, we're already done. So starting out with something that's about that woman, right? Like, are you reading that book in your hand? How did you come to be here in this library or museum, or what do you love about this piece of art? Ask me something that engages my mind, my being, shows me that you actually see me in the world, not just in relationship to you or to some invisible other man that owns me, but instead that you're like, oh, I see you as a human, just like I'm a human in this space that we like. Go to places you actually like to be, talk to the people there, like humans, you know, yeah, so those are some of my guidances.

Myisha: Well you could have my job, so. You did it all for me. [Laughs]

adrienne: Great. Solved it, handled it.

Myisha: But I also want to just, you know, talk with you, since I have you here today, about something I've been thinking about recently, which is not thinking about things in terms of, you know, is this feminist of me? Is this misogynist of me? Because for me, those words are really, the definitions are squishy, and they change. And, you know, they maybe are even different from cultural context to cultural context, right? So something that I think could be a help for this person is to think more in terms, on a day to day basis, about pro social behaviors. And I think men have been socialized to be more anti-social. They are encouraged less to invest in emotional connection and give and take. They are encouraged more to be these stoic individuals who don't need anybody, and therefore have to come to any relationship with, quote unquote, like more, quote unquote, information or acumen or success or whatever. To me, that's very anti-social, because it's not focused on building community, building connections. And I'm wondering if there's something you know from your work on "Loving Corrections" that ties back into that where, like there's sometimes this fear of making an attempt, and I know I've been on the receiving end of this from men so many times where their inclination is to go for it, and then they receive a rejection, and rather than that respectful, okay, yep, misread it. Moving on. Have a good day. You know, just letting it slide off their back, I'm met with that anti-social, violent, male reaction of “well, you're just a bitch, then you know, go back to your whatever, whatever” you know. And that's the stuff where you know, it's, it's the defense, it's the antagonism, it’s all of the toxic masculinity that everyone sort of is talking about, but we're all struggling to sort of figure out how to break that pattern.

adrienne: You know, when I think of pro social behavior, I think so much about belonging and I love that you're speaking to this, because I feel like a lot of men don't experience the kind of belonging that I experienced with my sisterhood, with my with the women friends in my life, where I'm like, I just know you have my back, and I'm bringing you everything that goes on. You know, I'm talking about the hard stuff. I'm talking about things that feel like rejection, talking about loneliness. I'm talking about ideas of perfection, perfection like instant first sight love and all this stuff that we were told that, like, oh, as you pull those threads, it all falls apart. But then belonging actually becomes more possible to me, right? The more I'm like, oh, if I'm just honest about what I'm actually experiencing, that's how I get to belonging. And I feel like I'm watching men. What they're really feeling is a deep loneliness, like there's no one that they're able to actually process the harder parts of their life with, the family parts, the sadness, the overwhelm of living in a world on the brink of crisis all the time. There's a lot of, they don't have anyone they're processing that with. And so it comes out. I'm like, I need you to be that person. Now you're saying no to me, and it just flips. And I really appreciate that, because I'm like, also be in therapy. Like, have places where you can go and process rejection and process what's coming up, and also recognize if you're tired of being the one, this is part of why I say go to the speed dating stuff and places like that because a lot of the men in my life, I've heard expressed, they're like, I'm tired. I'm always supposed to be the one who makes the first move. I'm always supposed to be the one who takes the risk. And it's so hard to constantly be rejected. I'm like, well, that might be because you're trying to find people where people are not looking for you, but if you go someplace where there's people, there's I know so many women right now. I know so many straight women or women who mostly date cis men, who are like, I'm looking for people who really want to make a genuine connection. I don't want to just be swiping on an app and hooking up with one person after that. I want a connection. Like, good. Go. Go find those people. They're in these speed dating spaces. They're in these, like, romance book clubs. They're in these other spaces. And I think again, that feels like a very pro social behavior. And then keep your curiosity intact, right? Like I always go back to the Four Agreements by Don Miguel Ruiz, you know I'm like, always, do your best. Don't make any assumptions. Be impeccable with your speech, and don't take things personally. Like someone not wanting to date you probably has very little to actually do with you because they don't know you yet, right? They're processing what's going on in their own lives. And if you go to some place where people are like, I am looking for connection too, your chances go way up and being able to meet people, I watch all these reality love shows, and I'm like, they're hilarious, but the thing in common is that there's so many people are just like, hey, I do really want connection. I do really want some love. And, you know, for better, for worse, it goes all kinds of ways. But I'm like, there's so many people in longing for connection. And part of what the book "Loving Corrections" is trying to do is like, how do we navigate the differences and the potential conflicts that come up in a way that allow us to stay connected?

Myisha: All right. Well, and lots for this person to think about. And I think sometimes it just requires thinking.

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Myisha: Let's get into our next question, and this one is from one of your readers, about finding pleasure as the world burns.

Question 2: Hi Myisha and adrienne, so here’s the thing. I have completely lost access to my pleasure. The grief and terror of what’s to come from elections to climate catastrophe to war…. it’s all immobilizing. I recently had sex for the first time with a woman who I once cared for deeply, but the entire time I could only think about how quickly I could leave the situation. It's almost as if my body is making me lose out from experiencing pleasure and connection at all rather than feel the grief of opening up just to see life leave. I guess if I had to put this into a question it would be something like: "How can I still enjoy sex and connection when death and loss are so close and inevitable?"

adrienne: Well, first I want to thank this person. Thank you for articulating the reality of this right now. I think you're not alone at all. I think a lot, a lot of people, I get this a lot. I just have been doing this book tour, and so many people have basically been sliding up and asking me this, like, how do we still feel anything good? It's all so sad, and it's also devastating. I mean, it's truly devastation. We're really looking at existing and coming devastation. And I keep saying, It's like we're already we were, you know, in the U.S., at least, we're founded on a wound, never got healed, and then there's just been more and more added to it. And so we're just carrying such a heavy emotional load right now. But there's a few directions I would point you in. One is possibly considering taking sex off the table for a little bit for yourself. And like considering, you know, for me, I have found that just this past 11 months of being in solidarity with Palestine has changed me. And before that, Black Lives Matter changed me. Before that, Me Too changed me, you know, or like, concurrently, Me Too, like the places where I was like, oh, I'm not alone as a survivor of this, oh, they're still lynching us in the streets. Oh, genocide is still totally an acceptable thing for most of the people in the country that I live in. Okay, I have to contend with this. I have to let it change me. And so it might help to be like right now, I can't get from there to orgasm. I can't get from there to sex with another person. What can I do to just reconnect with my own body and some of the ways that I have, you know, I cry almost every day. I really let myself feel what it's like to be alive in this time, I go outside with my shoes off and stand by the tree in my backyard and feel the dirt under my feet, which is also true, like it's like all the devastation is happening. And there's also still this patch of dirt beneath my feet that is growing there's still a tree next to me that is growing down and growing up. There's still the clouds moving. You know, there's still so much beauty. There's still the cycles of nature are still moving, and I am still alive inside of this nature that helps me sometimes just get back into my body on Earth. So one of the paths is go outside. One of the paths is to understand that this is actually a victorious shift in history, that these things cannot be hidden. The less that you can hide harm, the less harm is possible. Like, those are all good moves, then the final practice, which might be really difficult, might not be within reach, but might be something you use. I've stopped trying to hold a line between my grief and my pleasure. I've really let my pleasure be a way that I move my grief through. And my lovers know this. So they know that, like, sometimes I might have an orgasm and then I floodgate, and I'm going to just weep for a while, and I don't need to assign the weeping to I'm crying about this, that this, that I'm just like, this is the grief of being a human on Earth who is paying attention, and it's pouring out, because I just opened up all the portals and channels in my body so that everything can release. And I find it really helpful. Sometimes, when I'm by myself and I'm like, this is too much, I'm going to go have an orgasm and shake it out and move out some of the energy. I like using the technology of orgasm in that way. And again, for me, this is a decolonized way. This is a reclaimed way of using it. Because I'm like, oh, my sexual pleasure is not in relationship to reproduction. It's not in relationship to someone's ownership of my body. It's for me to figure out how I need to use all of this sensation, all of this feeling, all of this opening. And when I have an orgasm, I'm like, yeah, this is what we're supposed to be doing. We're supposed to be having so much pleasure from an abundant earth that wants to give us, you know, the glorious salad of life, right? That's what we're actually supposed to be doing and I've got to stay on mission.

Myisha: I love that. I love that, understanding the assignment. Yeah, I mean, I totally hear in my practice all the time, people putting this added pressure on themselves to, you know, have the best sex, in spite of all of the feelings that the world is inspiring in them right now. And for some of us, that's just, it's just not going to go the way that we want it to go. It also doesn't like, if you have one of those experiences, it doesn't replace the grief, you know?

adrienne: It doesn't even delay it or anything,

Myisha: Right.

adrienne: It's all right there with it.

Myisha: It just is. It's all there. And so I think this person is going to take a lot from what you just said, 100 percent.

adrienne: I hope so. It's also, like, just sometimes you just need to cuddle.

Myisha: That's what I was gonna say, too!

adrienne: Yes, sometimes you just need to be held.

Myisha: You know, they went back to this former partner and, you know, tried to have sex, and that, it seems like that experience really shook them. And I'm like, maybe that's not the type of connection you needed in that moment. Maybe you needed somebody to cuddle and cry with.

adrienne: That's right.

Myisha: Maybe you, you know, need more time screaming into your pillow.

adrienne: Yeah and also therapy and water, you know, like having a place where you can talk it through, that there's a container, and making sure you have a therapist who doesn't like, gaslight you into being like, don't care about the world.

Myisha: Yeah, right, right.

adrienne: You know, but it's just like, oh yeah, you're having, that's what I was saying, I'm like, you're having the right reaction to the world. And you know, what are the things you can do to help yourself get through this moment and stay connected to what makes you want to be alive. Which might not be sex right now, but it might be other kinds of connections.

Myisha: Yeah, you know, just disconnection for me has been really helpful. Disconnection from media. I have a lot of clients too, who are just too tapped in every single moment to what's happening, and it's too much.

adrienne: There's something about balance, right? Because I'm always like, we don't want to look away such that we're ignoring what's happening in the world.

Myisha: Right.

adrienne: But we do need to figure out, like, how much can I handle and still be effective in trying to stop the harm from happening and trying to create pathways to the future. And I know for myself that I'm like, I can get to where I'm only taking it in, not processing it, not letting it move into action, right? I don't need to just watch stuff and not do anything. And I think that that's a very modern problem, right? It's like, suddenly I'm like, I can watch a war. I can live stream a war into my hand. It's in my, I’m carrying around with me at all times. But it's not enough to just know. I have to figure out, like, okay, what is my right action? And everyone's going to have different right actions. But maybe that's another thing that just helps a lot, is that I'm like, I know, you know, every day I lay down and I'm like, did I do as much as I could do today with all that I know? And sometimes what I could do is like, grieve. I take very seriously the fact that I'm like, if I see that people were shot in New York City over subway fare, I need to grieve my society. I need to take some time and feel that. And I do think that that helps a lot is like, don't skip over it. Take the portion that is yours that you can handle, process it.

Myisha: Right.

adrienne: And exes are complicated. I mean, that's a whole other part of this question. But like, going back to people who you've had a previous relationship with that might not have been so fraught with destruction and devastation like, that just might be something that's too heavy for that connection in that way. But that doesn't mean that there aren't people who are also, you know? I'm like, find and fall in love with people at marches. Go out and find, like the hotties for justice. You know what I'm saying?

Myisha: One of the benefits of the revolution.

adrienne: Exactly.

Myisha: Find your love for life.

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Myisha: Okay, we're gonna take a quick break, and when we come back, we're gonna get into one more question about the emotions that come from searching for intimacy. Don't go anywhere.

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Myisha: And we're back. adrienne, we have one last question from your audience. Let's hear it.

Question 3: Hi Myisha and adrienne. I’m a twenty four year old person assigned female at birth and I mostly date folks who were assigned male at birth or amab. I’ve never been in a long term relationship, but I do desire connection and intimacy. I’ve only experienced casual relationships, and now I want to find someone who cares deeply about me. Finding something like this takes time. My question is, what do I do with all the yearning in the meantime? And is this yearning for close and caring intimacy something I can provide myself or find in others?

Myisha: Oh, the yearning.

adrienne: Oh, I love that.

Myisha: Yeah.

adrienne: That's a beautiful, tender question. I want to point to a conversation I got to be in with, so I have a podcast called How to Survive The End of the World. And last season was the witch season. We called it witch school, and I just interviewed all these different people who in different ways, some of them do Astrology, some of them do, some of them are Herbalists, some of them are Reiki Healers, Doulas. I mean, there's a wide range of people who, in some way, tap into magic to make their work work, right? So I had this couple, Alexis Pauline Gumbs and Sangodare Wallace, come on. Alexis is a writer that I'm in community with, Sangodare is a filmmaker. They have been this black feminist power couple for, I don't know, like, a decade now, maybe longer. It feels like they've always been together. And so I wanted to bring them on, because I was like, I feel like y'all are like, casting some love spell at all times, I'm like, I need to know more about it. And Sangodare tells the story that before they met Alexis, Alexis Pauline Gumbs. Before they met Alexis, they knew that they were yearning for love. They knew that they wanted a partner in this life. They wanted someone to feel with them, care with them, all the things you're talking about. So they started writing letters, love letters to this person, and they named the person, Pauline. They were just like, I'm just gonna start writing these letters to Pauline about,

Myisha: Goosebumps!

adrienne: I know, I know. I was like, what! So they started writing these letters to someone, they named Pauline, about the kind of love they had to offer and the kind of love that they wanted to manifest, and that they were dating from that place. So, so Sangodare talks about how if they would go out with someone who was like, the care is not here, the connection is not here, that they wouldn't keep engaging or indulging that, but they were like, I've got to say no to the things that are not that, because I've got to keep the space open for what I'm longing for. And I just think that that conversation will really help with like, how do I, how do I make a practical set of steps from all this yearning, so it's not just like, overwhelming me and I'm laying around all, oh, you know. And then the hardest part for me as a people pleaser, as a woman, has been learning to speak up in real time about what my wants are, given that they're changing. How would I feel celebrated? How would I feel cared for? And I need to get it not just as an idea in my head that I hope the other person picks up on the nonverbal transmissions, but I actually need to articulate it from my mouth so that they have a chance to say yes or no. So yeah, I think communication is such a huge part, articulating that yearning into those love letters, like, let your love go ahead, go ahead and let that love be flowing out of you. It's in you. It wants to move out into the world. Let it be flowing out of you, because then you do become a love being you know, you become someone who like when anyone interacts with you, they're like, I can feel that soft opening, that yearning in you. But yeah, those are some ideas.

Myisha: Yeah, love the idea of the yearning being this, not this thing that you have to sort of cure, but that you can work with. And I have definitely been in this situation in my past, and felt like the yearning, when I tuned into it, gave me a lot of really good information about what I wanted in my future, and not, like you said, the sort of specific form of it, but the type of care that I was missing. And this person asked, if that's something they can provide themselves, I think to a certain degree you can. I also love the idea of, like, turning this yearning into a really amazing masturbation practice.

Adrienne: Oh yeah, calling out your own name.

Myisha: You know, like your own bringing that energy, yes, like into a session where you just are with that energy, so much that it's just, that is an explosive energy.

adrienne: Yes.

Myisha: And so I'm really excited for this person to start playing around with that. And, yeah, your story earlier about how yearning brought these two partners together, fully, fully, fully, fully, gave me goosebumps. And to some degree, I can relate, you know.

adrienne: Oh, I mean. I still, on a regular basis I'm like, my training is to find my person, and I have to notice that I'm like, oh, you know, for me, the place I've landed in is I am my person. And now what I'm looking for is the people who, like, adore and easily cohabitate with and enjoy being, you know, like, but the person I'm loving, really, is myself, inside of that. And I really try to, you know, I'm like, I love the guidance that comes as like, love yourself the way you want to be loved. Like, I'm a huge fan of that, and I think it's so vulnerable to say, and also, there is a yearning for someone else to love me that way. And I, you know, I heard this person say they are assigned female at birth, and have mostly dated people assigned male at birth, and back to this bigger, bigger picture of patriarchy. I know a lot of AFAB women who are like, I'm struggling in this period of time to find a man who can love and care for me while we're in this transitional period between patriarchy and whatever's coming next. And I'm like, that's real. So some of that, I know a lot of people are like, I'm not finding the partnership that I think I most want and most deserve, but I am finding love, I am finding connection, I am finding other pathways. And I'm like, you know, give studs a chance. Give trans men a chance. I'm a big fan, that's like, there's a lot to be said for folks who are being very intentional about how they're living into gender, particularly when it comes to care and how they practice care. That you know, a lot of my women who have mostly dated in the cis spectrum, I'm like, I think there's a wide world out there of people who are trying to embody masculinity in different ways, and could love you really well.

Myisha: Yes, I think we should end with give studs a chance.

Adrienne: Give studs a chance! I'm just saying. I'm a fan, I'm a fan, I'm a fan.

MUSIC

Myisha: Well, it's time for our last segment. I have three questions lined up for you that are all related to sex and dating, and you get to pick which one you want to answer. You ready?

adrienne: I'm ready.

Myisha: All right. Here are your choices. A, what was a loving correction you received in your dating life that took time to accept? B, what was a sexual fantasy or dream you have yet to fulfill, but would want to? Or C, what is your pre and post date ritual to check in with yourself?

adrienne: Aww, these are great questions.

Myisha: Thank you. Got a great team.

adrienne: I know I was like, okay team! The first and the second one I have, I'm like, oh yeah, there's clear answers for that. But I think the first one is the one I'll go with. So I was in a relationship where I felt sexually starved. And it wasn't the first time I had been in this situation where I had gotten into a relationship with someone who was just mad about me, loved me, I loved them, but we were not sexually compatible, and I was just like, constantly complaining about it to my friends, just like I just, I don't know what to do. I've tried this, I've tried that, I've tried that, I've tried this. I'm upside down, sideways, trying anything I can to increase libido, and you know, and like, find a match or give up something, or whatever it is. And one of my beloved friends was like, well, look, you committed to this, and if you're committed to this, then you just need to stop complaining about it and just let this be your life. I got so spitting mad. I was just like, what the fuck are you talking, like? I need to process like, you need to listen to it and I need to process it like, what, you know, like, I just was like, I couldn't even. I was incoherent with, I was just like, how dare you? And I needed to sit with it. I need to take some baths with it. I need to burn some Copal on myself with it. I need to see. Like you're saying, I just need to settle! And it took me, like, a good couple weeks to process through to like, oh, that's not what you're saying. You're saying you need to get out of there so that your life is not this complaint for the next to whenever you die. You need to find a way to exit stage left and get on your sexual journey again. Because your sexual journey is not about helping this person's libido change. Your sexual journey is about finding people who have libido that's anywhere close to yours, so that y'all can be doing something else right, like, and it took me a while, and then I was like, oh, oh, I'm not in the right relationship. I'm not in the right relationship to myself, and I'm not honoring this person who legitimately has this totally different system. There's their system of, you know, I love that book by oh gosh, I was on their podcast, and it's like, Come As You Are?

Myisha: Oh. Emily Nagoski!

adrienne: Yes, thank you! So "Come As You Are," was one of the, was a really elucidating read for me, like so much so that I was trying to help, I was trying to change my partner. And I was like, here I'm gonna earmark every part that you need to read. And then I was like, oh no, again, let go of that. Just be in my own body. But part of what Emily says in that book is everyone is literally wired the way they're wired, and if we stop trying to shame each other across our different wiring, then we can actually make more possible. So that might be a situation where it's like, oh, this is a good poly situation where, like, we can have love and over here I can have some other sexual explorations, or something else becomes possible. So I found that so helpful, right? That I was like, oh, I need to go be responsible for my own libido and meeting my own needs and figuring all that out. And that was the kind of correction that this friend could make, because she knew me really well. She knows that I'm not a settler like in my life I've never been someone who's just like, I'm just going to get in this misery and stay in it, that's not what I do, right? I'm not a stagnant pond kind of girly, right? I need to be in the river flowing at all times. So now that comes to me regular, like, if I'm in a, even a moment of conflict with one of my partners, where I'm just sort of like, I want them to change but and I'm like, no, I don't. I want that person to be who they are. I want to attend to how it works for me. I want to find the right boundaries between us, the right togetherness between us, so that we can really enjoy what works. And I am free, and they are free, and that's what we're doing. So I'm so grateful for that correction. It got me liberated.

Myisha: Yes, yeah, love him or hate him, it reminds me of Dan Savage who talks about the price of admission. You know, we all pay a price of admission to each relationship that we're in.

adrienne: That's right.

Myisha: And we have to decide, you know,

adrienne: That's right,

Myisha: Once I've paid and I've agreed, yeah, that's what I'm accepting. You know, to a certain degree, obviously there are exceptions. But, yeah.

adrienne: Yes, exactly, exactly. And then just, and then you figure out, like, is this, you know, like, what are the things I can compromise around? I don't, for me, sex is too important to be one of the things around which I'm compromising. It can be a space in which I'm exploring. It can be a space which we're learning together, but it can't be a space where I'm just, like, I'm just unsatisfied, and that's just the reality.

Myisha: Right.

adrienne: That's not for me.

Myisha: No.

adrienne: That's not for me. I don't think it's for most people, so but you know, I needed that, I needed that. I needed someone to hold up the mirror from outside and hold my hand and be like, girl, I know you. You're going to stop complaining one way or the other.

Myisha: Yeah, not easy to hear.

adrienne: And it's true, I don't complain about that anymore.

Myisha: Good!

adrienne: Yeah! I don't need to, so, yeah.

MUSIC

Myisha: This has been such a joy. I could be here all day with you. Before you go, I would love for you to share where people can find you. I know this is probably the tail end of book tour, right? But are there places where people can still see you?

adrienne: Well, you know, I just did a southern driving book tour, and now I'm gonna do an East Coast book tour, and then at some point, I'll do a West Coast some point, I'll do Midwest. But I'm just, I'm breaking it up into things that work for my body. So that's one thing to keep an eye on. And then I write a lot. So you can find my books wherever books are sold. And you can find me on Instagram at adrienne maree brown, maree is spelled M, A, R, E, E.

Myisha: All right. Well, thank you again for being here, adrienne, really appreciate you. always.

adrienne: Thank you.

CREDITS

Myisha: Well, it's officially spooky season, and what's spookier than a date gone wrong, getting ghosted or bad sex? All month long, we're collecting your dating horror stories. What's the worst date you've ever gone on? What's an experience you've had being catfished. I want to hear about it all. Just drop us a voice memo at sexlife@kcrw.org and we might feature it on the show.

MUSIC

Myisha: How's Your Sex Life is a KCRW original podcast. Our producer is Andrea Bautista, with help from Myriam-Fernanda Alcala Delgado. Our executive producer is Gina Delvac. This episode was mixed by Hope Brush. Our music was created by Carolyn Pennypacker Riggs. Special thanks to Women's Audio Mission, Arnie Seipel and Jennifer Ferro, and a big shout out to our voice actors. We'll let them introduce themselves on the way out.

VO 1: This is Aaron. Thanks for listening!

VO 2:This is Lena Ransfer. If you liked this episode, share it with a friend!

VO 3: This is Lizzy Schliessmann. See you next week for another episode of KCRW’s How’s Your Sex Life?