How to deal with mismatched libidos, full transcript

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Erica Chidi: I don't really associate sex as like food, like I don't need it to survive. I think I need touch to survive. I need deep pressure hugs, I need like cuddling, I need like, you know, hair playing, kisses, like nuzzling. Those are that's food.

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Myisha: Hi, welcome back to another episode of KCRW's How's Your Sex Life? I'm your host Myisha Battle. Every week we hear from listeners who want a little bit of guidance when it comes to sex and dating. And you all have sent in a lot of great questions. But what I love even more is hearing how our advice is actually helping you out. We recently got an email from a listener who said they felt empowered. And honestly, that's all I could ever want. And today we're going to dig into more questions with the help of our guest, Erica Chidi. Erica is a health educator and author. She's also the founder of LOOM, a wellness app created for women and non binary people. Erica, thanks for being here!

Erica: Thanks for having me. I'm excited to get into it. 

Myisha: Yeah, I feel like this episode is really going to get into some body stuff. So really excited for that and your expertise. But before we get to those questions and give some people advice, I have one question for you and that is how's your sex life?

Erica: My sex life is great. I feel, I feel grateful for that. I'm in a really wonderful relationship that has always had a strong, sensual chemistry to it. Because there's all kinds of chemistry, there's, you know, intellectual chemistry, physical chemistry, that's not even sexual, that this partnership has always had that. So it's like, in a point of transformation, where we're both just adjusting to our lives. I feel like that's something I talk about a lot when it comes to sex is that your external life that is not sexual at all really impacts what your sexual relationship looks like, with a partner, partners or yourself. So I think that's the kind of the moment that we're in, but it's beautiful and I'm very, very grateful for that.

Myisha: Amazing. Yeah, I love that you mention the sensual connection, because I work with a lot of people who are dating and I time and time again, that comes up, you know, people will go on dates with people that they really think they're gonna have a great time with, but like there's something missing. And it's it's not just the chemistry piece, I think you know, maybe they have a really great conversation and things are flowing. But like, if you are sensual person and you're with like somebody who's not inclined in that way, like that shows up in the dinner that you have and how well you're appreciating it or like, you know what I mean? It's like a very subtle, like, vibe that can be there or not be there. Yeah, you can align on so many other things just that's not there. So thank you for sharing that. Yeah, of course. Amazing. Okay, so let's get into the first question. And just as a reminder, to our listeners, the questions you'll be hearing are read by voice actors, not the question askers 

Question 1: Hi, Myisha. I'm a 35 year old who's had two miscarriages with my partner. He's been so supportive through it, but I find myself distanced during intimacy since the last miscarriage. How do I get comfortable with myself again and enjoy intimacy with him?

Myisha: I love this question. And it actually reminded me of LOOM when I read it. So yeah, what's your impression of this question?

Erica: You know, I have seen this so many times over the years. So, in my work as a health educator, I also was a doula really supporting people at whatever stage they were at in terms of educating them, helping them with decision making. And, you know, I think the first thing to kind of tap in on is the fact that miscarriage is very common, you know, one in five people that are able to be pregnant will experience a miscarriage and that that stat is probably even higher in terms of those that actually report. So you know, sometimes that's the first place to start because I think a lot of the physical discomfort, emotional discomfort, sexual discomfort around miscarriage is the fact that this person might feel or she/they might feel like something is wrong with them. And there's no way to get by that or get through that. And so level setting, just saying that miscarriages are normal, miscarriages are common, and miscarriages are the way that the body figures out that this tissue is not ready to develop into anything more than that. So the next piece to kind of tap in on is when sex is very much focused on conceiving and having a child, the sex starts to take on this very fixed identity. Oftentimes, the sex stops being about connecting, it stops being about orgasming, if that's a goal or not, it stops being about the pleasure and it becomes very perfunctory. And I think for this person, it's important to take in those first two pieces. What you're experiencing is normal, and that have you potentially started to identify sex as a function to a certain outcome. And if those, if that's true, that's going to require just just some acknowledgement internally. And if the relationship has spaciousness to hold an external acknowledgment of that, and some dialoguing around that, then that also needs to happen. But I do think sometimes just the normalization at the base is like a big transformation for people to start to release this constriction or this fixation on their bodies as being incapable of doing the thing correctly. And then I think, you know, if those two things are not true for her or them, I think the third piece is really just giving yourself time. You know, I think that a miscarriage even in its evolutionary sophistication, and I could go on about that, it's still for people who are very focused on having a child can feel like a loss, and it can feel like deep grief, and grief is cyclical. So the expectation that, you know, sex is now just immediately going to start to feel good again I think is a high expectation. And I think just taking the pressure off getting comfortable with the idea that okay, maybe not every time will feel good, but if I can get a couple of times in a month, or if I have sex only two times that month, one was good, other ones not great, that's great, because that's over time going to compound and get better and be able to, you know, move through your body and your relationship and in the way that it needs to. And then I think the last component there would be, you know, if none of those things are true for you, I think that just trying to do different things as it relates to having sex, you know, if it's always in the bedroom, maybe it's somewhere else. If it's always, you know, penetration or intercourse, maybe it's more outercourse. It's really just about thinking, you know, how, how to explore it differently. And if you always come to sex the same way, maybe it's watching porn or including something different into the space that potentially catalyzes a different outcome.

Myisha: Definitely. Yeah, that was so thorough, and I see this in my practice as well and definitely just echo everything that you said. And one thing in particular was about how sex takes on a different identity during this time, and that's such a beautiful and succinct way to kind of encapsulate what people go through during this time. The way that I have also seen people shift out of that identity a little bit, especially for themselves, is to, you know, kind of reclaim their own sexual practice, you know, and sort of internalize that. And just like you said, like, things are cyclical, and emotions can come out, sometimes having a personal connection to your body, through masturbation can allow for those emotions to come out even more. I mean, I've had some sessions where I've been just crying through them, and like, you know, using that kind of orgasmic energy to sort of just heal from whatever is happening in my life, in my relationship, etc. And it can be really powerful to, you know, take the context that you've been in, where sex is a certain thing, and it means a certain thing, and just take it completely out of that context and be like, Oh, this is for me. This is for pleasure. This is for healing and it does kind of shift that experience, you know, so I wanted to offer that just as an extra little bonus. But I think everything you said was really spot on. 

Erica: Well, you know, so funny, it's, I think that we both come to sex with this educator hat on and for me, educator means framework, and it means 

Myisha: Yes

Erica: Putting something into action, and that's always my and that's why I what I've always loved about your work, too. And doubling down on the masturbation piece as well. I think that it's it is so important, and I'm surprised I even forgot about that. But, you know, I think it can be so key and even mutual masturbation, I feel like some couples are open to that, and some aren't. But just, you know, being able to demonstrate and show like, this is what's feeling comfortable for me, or this is what turns me on right now. Or just seeing your partner be turned on can, you know, catalyze something different, so yeah, completely agree.

Myisha: Love it. Okay. I think that, you know, I'm hopeful for this person and their relationship to sex. And you know, it's going to change, it's going to continue to change. So I hope that that's a helpful framing for them. All right. Let's listen to the next question. This question asker needs some advice on something that's pretty common in long term relationships. 

Question 2: How do you tackle the issue of mismatched libidos in a long term, monogamous relationship? To give some background, I have long suspected I fall somewhere on the spectrum of asexuality, my partner does not. We're great communicators, so it's not an issue of talking about it - which we've done many times _ but an issue of reconciling these differences sustainably. To me, sex is a fun activity in the same way as going to the movies. I enjoy it most of the time, but I could take it or leave it. But I know for my partner and apparently most of the rest of humanity, sex is just held on a different level. The interest is stronger than that for a night at the movies crossing over from interest into need. I don't want my partner to feel neglected or unwanted. And my partner doesn't want me to feel pressured or used. Other than keeping communication open and honest what can we do to tackle this issue in a long term relationship?

Myisha: This one is really, this one's really common for me. What’s your experience working with people?

Erica: You know, well, it's interesting. I have a couple different thoughts about it, because in a way, like I kind of identify with her. I feel that I really enjoy sex. It's great and I'm love, I'm a cinephile. I love movies, and I love TV. You know, but it's, there's not I feel like I'm generally a very intense person that just enjoys kind of everything kind of at an equal, an equal measure. Like food, movies, sex, outdoors, sunset, sunrise, ocean, it's all kind of, it's all it's not flat because my enjoyment and my affect around it is like, it's up there. But I don't really really associate sex as like food, like, I don't need it to survive. I think I need touch to survive. I need deep pressure hugs, I need like cuddling. I need like, you know, hair playing, kisses, like nuzzling, those are that's food. Like, I gotta have that. But everything around sex for me is like, you know, I'll do it, I love it. It's great and I'm, I consider myself to be good at it. We'll take the feedback if not, no feedback, it's good! But I think that I really hear where she's coming from. And I think other people do identify with sex being food, like I need it, it's not negotiable. And so I mean, there's a couple of different ways you can explore this. And again, it's good to know that they're good communicators. Yeah, I might say something a little out the box and just say, one, is your partner really wanting sex from you? And when I say that, not to say that they're not desirous of you, but more so is there, is there support? Or is there spaciousness in the relationship to encourage a healthy masturbation practice, because, you know, a lot of people didn't get good modeling around masturbation. And also, we're kind of sold into this idea of when you're in a long term partnership, that partner is supposed to fulfill all of your sexual needs, and masturbation should be secondary or tertiary, right. And if you're all of a sudden, you know, the limerency has faded, and you're in the relationship, but there's still like, deep value, deep connection, deep communication, like, you know, you're so on the same page about so many other things. I always just think it's worth talking about, like putting out there, and actually just expressing that it's not even about necessarily a mismatch with one being correct or one not being correct. It's more just how do we, how do we get your needs met? What does that look like? And what are you doing to meet your needs that is outside of me and having masturbation be like the ground floor. You know, if that's already super present and that's not something that has not really been, quote, unquote, for lack of a better word, optimized in the relationship, then it's thinking about, you know, depending on how long the relationship has been, like, is there room for, you know, a polyamorous dynamic where that person can get met again? Obviously, there's a lot of complexity to that. There's a lot of, you know, fear that needs to be negotiated, rules and parameters that need to be set up. But I think that that is something to, to talk through, to explore. And then also, and I will say this, from my own experience, folks that are asexual or leaning into that space. I can maybe speak for myself, even though I don't identify as asexual, but I understand some of the components of it, some of the components feel resonant to me, doing different types of sexual things. So is it rope play, bondage, role play? Like what's maybe not happening, like how elastic is the space around sex? Because I'm imagining, I could be wrong, sex as this person defines it is, you know, penis vagina sex or intercourse, maybe general vanilla outercourse, as we know it, right. And if this person is referring to themselves as asexual, and also like, different to the rest of the world I'm going to make an assumption, could be wrong, that maybe they're interested in a different type of sexual experience that maybe they haven't been given the okay to talk about or to lean into. And so I would, I would encourage them to be like, "What am I actually into?" like, what's always maybe been like a little flicker in the back of my mind that I'm like, if I was with the right person, and there was enough safety here and there was enough dadadada, could I maybe try this thing? Because I feel like everybody has a could I maybe try this thing with this person? And, you know, maybe there's something there. So that that's my piece. I almost would say, thinking about non vanilla sex environments and experiences I would put before the polyamory actually. I would say like, masturbation and like anything but vanilla sex. Is there a there there in terms of being able to do something different, because that's what I feel like asexual people are just like, I don't want to do this thing that everybody else does. I'm just not into that. But if I have something else we can do, I'm into that! And I just don't know what that is, you know. So that's, that's, that's my like intuition of what I've seen of folks who are like more asexual, they're actually just asexual from vanilla sex, they're actually into different things.

Myisha: No, that's great. I mean, yeah, I mean, this person says that sex is a fun activity in the same way as going to a movie for them. And what I try to tell people is that sex is always a shared activity, you know, people don't want to talk about it, or like, organize it or structure it in their relationships, like everything else that they do in a relationship, but it absolutely necessitates that because it is a shared activity that both people have to opt into. And so I love your idea of sort of like, well, what are we saying we want to opt into? Like let's get to the, like, brass tacks of that and even though they're having conversations about this, another thing that I think people hit a wall with is, if they're really good communicators then they're just talking about this and not really taking many proactive steps, because none of us know what to do with this shit. Like, we're not taught how to navigate different libidos and relationships. So the conversations that I've seen usually involve, “Well, you never want to have sex with me, or you always want to have sex with me, and it's really annoying and it's a turnoff," you know, and then that's kind of where the conversation ends. So one thing that I think is really helpful is, like you said, sort of evaluating like, well, what are we both agreeing to opt into when we say sex? You know, can that definition be broadened? And then also, how often are we really making that a shared activity in the relationship? I mean, I've had my partner come to me and be like, it's really important to me that we go to a movie theater, I'm just coming back to movies, but like, we watch movies at home, but like, I need to go to a movie theater, like, at least once a month, you know, and if we can just plan a date night around that, that would be awesome. And that's something that we've made, you know, a relative goal. Sometimes we miss it, sometimes we make it but, you know, my point is that if there's a shared goal around what sexual activity is, then that can be planned for and anticipated and sort of like built around, because a lot of times the lower libido partner carries a lot of anxiety about like, when is this desire that I don't feel going to come at me externally, that I then have to react to, decide in the moment whether I want to accept or reject. And that's a really hard place to be, just as it is hard for the person who is maybe always thinking about this, to be the constant initiator and suffer the rejection of nos over and over and over again. So what I've found kind of eases the tension of this conversation and also just changes the conversation that's being had is, we have a shared goal, we understand what that means and we really plan for it. Not only do we plan for it, but we're having conversations around it about like, is this actually a good time? I know, we said we were gonna have like, sexy time on Friday, but like, I had a really shitty meeting with my boss today. And like, I don't know, if I'm gonna be up for it. Can we push this off to tomorrow? And then making sure that you honor that commitment. Much like you would honor any other commitment in your life. You know? 

Erica: Totally.  

Myisha: But I think it's really hard for people to like, put sex on this same priority level or like negotiate it the way that they would anything else in their schedule. So yeah, I've seen it work, though. People are really resistant, but when they actually kind of put this into practice, not only does it ease some of those conversations, but it just makes the topic of sex like more enjoyable and inviting as well. 

Erica: Yeah, I completely agree. 

Myisha: Yeah. All right. Well, we're gonna take a quick break. When we come back, we'll be hearing from a listener who's getting turned off by messy sex. So I really want to hear your thoughts on that. And if you've been listening and want to send in your question for me to answer with a guest, send me an email at sex life at kcrw dot org.

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Myisha: All right, we are back. Let's hear what our next question asker has to say.

Question 3: I would describe myself as a very sexual person, but recently I've been going through a period of low drive. Things that once really turned me on like, rough sex and BDSM, are now having the opposite effect. And my partner really enjoys coming on me but the mess has started to really turn me off and even gross me out. For the same reason, I'll skip on my own orgasm when we have sex because I squirt and it makes a big mess, but it wasn't always like this. Any advice on being okay again with squirting and messy sex?

Myisha: Oh, my heart is breaking.

Erica: I really, I really feel that though. I understand. 

Myisha: I do too! I do do! 

Erica: I mean, it's, it's so interesting. It's, I don't know, again, I don't know what's happening in her or their life outside of sex, but oftentimes there's some type of macro event that happens that just reduces the tolerance for mess just generally and even sexually. So, you know, I'm curious if she's just started a new job, or if someone passed away, or if, you know, she has to move soon, or, like, there's just, I feel like the times when I was the most into just messy sex and like, all of that I had less on my plate. Like, they're just just a little bit more room, you know. And so that's, that's like my, my like spidey sense being like, what else is going on? Or what has the partner done? Or what's like something has happened, that is not even related to like, the actual environment. Like there's just a reduction of tolerance, but then, as I say that, again, not to be negative, you know, I said, reduction of tolerance, maybe there's a change in preference too, you know, and I think we're allowed to change our preferences over time and, ideally, the partnerships that we're in, allow for that change, and allow for the curiosity to understand, okay, where's the wind blowing now if it's not that? And yeah, I have a lot of sensory issues myself. And so, you know, I really get just not liking having yourself be like wet and messy, and the smells and all of those things. So, yeah, I mean, you know, I think, I think there's so many ways of potentially going around fixing this or taking care of it, but, you know, potentially having something along with sex that helps like reduce inhibition, and kind of lowered the sensory environment in some way. And for some people, that's a glass of wine, it could be CBD, it could be, you know, mushrooms, I don't know, whatever they're feeling like they're open to, but I do think sometimes those things can help. And also, you know, their partner coming on them. Do they have to cum on them? Can they cum in their mouth? Can it go somewhere else so it doesn't go everywhere? 

Myisha: There are options! 

Erica: There's options, you know? And also, I think for squirting, like, you know, does it have to happen in the bed? Are we having sex somewhere else, you know, where you can just wipe it up, and there's no laundry involved, and there's no wet spot, because the wet spot is not fun. 

Myisha: No. 

Erica: It's really not fun, especially when you're like, that was amazing and now I have to go to sleep.  

Myisha: It's cold!

Erica: It's cold. So cold! And you're just like, okay, so different space. And yes, you can put a towel down, but like towels, don't feel that nice you know? You want the smoothness of a sheet and so again, I think maybe just trying a different environment. But I'm curious, like, what do you think? What's been your experience? What have you seen?

Myisha: Yeah, well, okay, I'll address the like logistical things first, which I think like, invest in a really nice, like microfiber towel. I think that can really help just to have as like, this is a standard kind of procedure. And it's funny because I was watching one of Lola Jean’s post, I don't know if you know her, but she's like, squirting queen. 

Erica: Yeah. 

Myisha: And she, she did this video about why she's kind of hard to date, because of the squirting and why, you know, people really eroticized this, but then there are like logistical concerns and she's not like trying to poo poo it and say that it's so terrible, but she's like, here's the reality of it. Like, I have to come equipped with these things, or make sure that my partner has, you know, stuff for me, so that I can feel like totally comfortable having sex because I will squirt. So, you know, finding something that works for you is really, really great. And that's what I've done in the past too and you'd think that it's like not a sexy thing, but it's kind of like oh the towel's coming out! Like we're about to do some major damage here, you know, and like, that can be hot! 

Erica: Yeah. 

Myisha: That can be very hot. But yeah, it's not foolproof. So there's that. Something came to mind, though about hormones, because I know for me, certain times when I have sex, like I'm into the smells. I love them. There are times though, in my cycle where I'm like, I don't want to smell that. Like I just don't want to smell. I don't wanna smell myself. I don't want to smell you. I'm just very sensitive to that and I wonder if there's been a change in this person's like, kind of hormone profile, something that's very common for instance is to be on no birth control, or like no hormonal intervention at the beginning of a relationship, which might give you that kind of tolerance at the beginning of the relationship in addition to the, like, limerence stage where things are really, really exciting. And then going on hormonal birth control, which may be messing with some of their natural responses to these things. So what do you think? 

Erica: Yeah, I completely agree. Yeah, hormones could be a big, big part of it and it's definitely something to think about or stay curious about being aware. Like, right after I'm done bleeding and I'm moving into what we know is the follicular phase to ovulation up to ovulation, vibes it's cool don't really care, then post ovulatory, going into the luteal phase before you bleed again, and you're a little bit like no, like no. If that's what's happening, if there's a cyclical quality to it, then I would absolutely agree that it's hormones. But if it's consistent, doesn't matter what time of the month it is, then, yes. And if you notice a big shift when you were not on anything, birth control related hormone wise, and now you are and there's been a dip and agreed, I think that's definitely worth incorporating, yeah and thinking about.

Myisha: Right! And just like what you said earlier, it's like, maybe not a tolerance issue, but a change. And that change might be something that's, you know, a result of a very real thing that you decided to do to like, be, like, feel more free sexually in the relationship. So there's pros, there's cons to all of these choices, but I wanted to bring that in because I think that that's for me an experience that I've had being a person who's not on any hormonal birth control. And I noticed that I'm like, can we not? Like, yeah, it's such a weird thing to have to, like, explain to somebody that like something that was so sexy before, you know, for both of you is now like something that you just like, you literally have like a kind of blugh, you know, ick response to. So I feel this person, for sure. 

Erica: Yeah, I do, too. 

Myisha: I am so glad that you came on to address these questions. Before we go, I had like, a quick idea that I just had as we were talking, just something for you to leave our listeners with because I think this came up a couple times as you were addressing questions. If there were three big, like body myths that you wish people could just automatically, if they could wake up tomorrow and just be rid of these kind of like, toxic ingrained ideas about their bodies, like what are your top three myths you wish people would just bust?

Erica: Hmm, specifically about sex or just generally? 

Myisha: Just generally about bodies. I think that we could all use a little bit of just like, huh, okay, that's just a myth and I don't need to like labor under that anymore.

Erica: Three body myths that would be helpful for people to release themselves from, I would say, one, you don't need to orgasm every time you have sex. I just don't think that's necessary, doesn't mean it's gone wrong. And I think that's always something to just repeat over and over again. I think that you don't necessarily need to love your body because I also think that that's just a really big thing like "Love your body! Love it! dadadada." I think you need to just accommodate your body and find comfort in it. Comfort does not mean you're in love. It just means you're at ease and I think that could maybe lead to other things, but I think just moving from love to comfort or acceptance as a better goal. And I think maybe the other thing too, is that weightlifting will make your body weird or bad, or like you'll be in because the thing that's so interesting now is like, I feel like I'm talking about this all the time, but I started weightlifting like a year and a half ago and was encouraged to do it by a friend. And I've just loved it so much. And I think that so much of like the thinspiration, small body, non thick movement, that most of us grew up on really kind of shut us off from that type of exercise and getting strong just feels really good. And it's also good for your health and your bone density and your hormones. And so this myth of just like don't weight lift because you're gonna get too big or too muscley I think is caca and we should figure out how to start talking more about just yeah, like lifting for health, lifting for strength, lifting for you know, so many good reasons and a strong body is, you know, a strong body, which is a good thing. 

Myisha: Yeah, I love that. And yes, that is a huge myth that should be busted especially for women, you know who have maybe not been as included in the like, gym culture of lifting weights. I think that can be it can be really intimidating. I started lifting weights at home. So, you know, love a small but mighty, the changes are already being felt. So I think that's great. Also, like, subscribe to a newsletter called She's a Beast.

Erica: Oh, yeah, Casey?

Myisha: Yeah!

Erica: Yeah! That's a great newsletter.

Myisha: It's been really fun. It's been really fun to like, have that focus or that lens, so thank you for offering that. I really appreciate it. 

Erica: Of course. 

Myisha: Yeah, it was so great having you today. As always, I love speaking with you. Where can people find you? And yeah, I wonder if you're doing anything IRL these days too?

Erica: The best place to find me would probably be on Instagram just at Erica Chidi and also my little website, Erica Chidi dot com. 

Myisha: Thank you.

Erica: It's small but mighty. It just tells you where I've been, what I'm doing, and how to find me.

Myisha: Amazing. And please check out LOOM.

Erica: Yes, please. It's only on iOS. So it's only for Apple folks. I'm sorry, Android users. But yes, it's in the app store and just look up LOOM. Learn about your body and it'll be right there. 

Myisha: Amazing. Thanks, Erica! 

Erica: Thank you! 

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Myisha: That's it for today. Thanks for listening. If you want advice about your hookups, relationships, or sex life, drop me an email at sex life at kcrw dot org. 

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Myisha: How's Your Sex Life? is a KCRW original podcast. Our producer is Andrea Bautista. Our executive producer is Gina Delvac. This episode was recorded by Phil Richards and mixed by Nick Lampone. Our music was created by Carolyn Pennypacker Riggs. Special thanks to Arielle Torrez, Malorie McCall, Adam Serrano, Connie Alvarez, Arnie Seipel, and Jennifer Ferro. And as always, a huge thanks to our voice actors will let them introduce themselves on the way out.

Voice Actor 1: This is Mia Fernandez. Thanks for listening.

Voice Actor 2: This is Andrea Bautista. Be sure to follow the show and share it with a friend.

Voice Actor 3: This is Adria Kloke. See you next time for another episode of How's Your Sex Life!