Help, I’m in love with a cowboy! full transcript

Myisha: You know, if you're thinking about polyamory that's that's taking a step off the relationship escalator already. So why put yourself back on it with this idea that you have to have one partner who then becomes the father of your children who you stay with forever? Like, there's there's some conflicting kind of narratives here. 

[MUSIC] 

Myisha: Hi! Welcome back to another episode of KCRW's How's Your Sex Life? I'm your host Myisha Battle. I'm really excited to dig into all of your juicy questions today. And I'm going to be doing that with a fellow sexologist, author, and intimacy coach, Elle Chase. Elle and I have connected on Instagram before and it's so nice to finally be in conversation today. Elle, thank you so much for being here.

Elle: Thanks for having me! 

Myisha: Yay, I'm really excited to team up to help our listeners have some better sexual experiences. 

Elle: Yes, some better connection. 

Myisha: Yes. So I want to ask you one question before we get started. And that's how's your sex life?

Elle: You know, my sex life is exactly where I want it to be. 

Myisha: Love that.

Elle: At the moment, it's intentional. And I, for the first time, decided not to prioritize my sex life because I have a bunch of other huge life stuff going on. And I'm like, you know what? I'm not going to worry about this. If I want to have sex, I'll have sex with myself and when I'm ready to deep dive back into it, I will do it. So it's a, it's a great place to be to make the choice of that and just know that, you know, it'll come back when it comes back. And, you know, and I can start to prioritize it when I want to prioritize. So yeah.

Myisha: Just like anything else in life.

Elle: Exactly. 

Myisha: You know?

Elle: Exactly. 

Myisha: Yeah, I think people, we're probably gonna get a sense of this in the questions today, but I think people get a lot, like really freaked out when they feel like sex has been deprioritized in their lives. And they fear that it won't come back, you know? This is just the way that it is. And it's like, well, you know, sometimes we're not great friends to our friends, but then we, we come back to it. And you know, we put that energy in, and we do what we have to do, and we make our amends. And we...

Elle: Yes, yes! Well you know, it's I think when we look at our sex life, often we don't give it the grace that we'll give other things in our lives. Like, why should our sex life be any different than our enthusiasm for, you know, going camping, if you like camping or doing anything, or just seeing that one particular friend or getting together or having dinner parties, or, you know, I'm doing service things, but you know what I mean, it's just a part of life and all parts of life wax and wane, and it's just a part of being human and living in the world.

Myisha: I agree. Yes. I love that. Thank you for sharing that because I think it's such a big, important way to jump off this conversation. 

Elle: Oh, good. Yes.

Myisha: All right. Let's dig into our first question. And as a reminder, the questions you'll be hearing are voiced by actors, not the question askers.

Question 1: I’m in love with a cowboy, help! I’ve been dating the same guy for 5 years. We’re best friends and in the same professional network. He knows all my family, friends and coworkers. However for several years I have felt the pull to be non monogamous but he has always refused my request. Three years ago I fell in love with a cowboy but I repressed my desire to sleep with the stud in order to stay with someone more reliable and consistent. Since then I have pined over other men and women but felt if I broke up with my partner I would lose a connection I care about. I also have not stopped thinking about the cowboy and regret missing that wild ride. Most recently my partner has been gone working abroad for 3 months and I’m starting to go crazy with desire to sleep with other people. Many of my friends tell me to dump him but I’m afraid of losing his friendship and I’m also afraid I won’t find another good guy to settle down with as I’m in my mid thirties. Help!

Elle: Oh, wow! That is, that's, that's a, that's a big one. I mean, I have an answer, but it's not like a quick like, "this is what you do!" answer, you know what I mean? 

Myisha: Oh we're not here for that. We're here for the thought journey, so take us on yours! 

Elle: The first thing that popped into my head is a partnership is a choice. It's not based, it can, it's, as far as I'm concerned, in my own personal opinion, partnering up with somebody is a choice. You can love them. You can not love them. Marriage, partnership, all of that is a construct. Okay. That being said, it is one that we are very familiar with, attuned to, it is how our society seems to to work right now to that degree. So if this partnership is not fulfilling you on a level that is inherently important to you, not just like, I'm in the stage where I just want to fuck around, like, really get curious and introspective about what it is that you feel that you're missing and why? I mean, I, I’d definitely get coaching and therapy around this as well because both in tandem would be excellent for this. But um, also waiting, like worried that you're not going to partner up with somebody else. Why is that important to you? Why is having a partner important to you? And I'm not saying that from a judgment place. I'm saying that like, no, really, like, what are you afraid of if you don't have a partner, you know? There are many, many, I'm seeing it at least, women over 40, who are leaving marriages, leaving lives that they thought that they were going to be in for the rest of their lives, they had everything set and they were happy, they thought. And then suddenly, something happened in their life and they're like, I don't want this anymore. And it's scary to say that and to leave something, that devil you know, that friend, that companion, for something else. But for some women, it becomes untenable to be in a partnership that stagnates and is not allowing them to grow in the way that they feel they need to grow as an individual. So my feeling for this person is there needs to be a lot of introspection. And a lot of figuring out if this is the fantasy of being non monogamous, or, you know, having an affair or being with a cowboy! I mean, I think that that's also very telling that that's what she's describing. I'm assuming it's a she. It feels very, it's like I'm in love with a Playboy bunny. I'm in love with a stripper. Help! I, you know, I'm in love with you know, God, I mean, you know, a rock star or anything like that, there is a fetishization there. Um, that's the wrong word, but I can't think of the other word. 

Myisha: They're archetypes!

Elle: Objectification! Yes!

Myisha: Yeah, for sure. 

Elle: And that is telling to me in the way that she describes it, so I would, I would just say please, oh please, oh please. Discover where this is coming from with someone who is objective and a professional who can help you parse what is going on inside you.

Myisha: I agree. I agree wholeheartedly. And, you know, going back to the beginning of the question, this is someone who has, maybe multiple times brought up the fact that they were curious about opening their relationship and polyamory. That may be coming from, you know, a real identity that they hold, and they owe it to themselves to investigate that otherwise, they risk repeating the same things. Do we know that the cowboy wants to be non monogamous?

Elle: Do they know how difficult it is to be non monogamous and how much work it takes to be poly? I mean.

Myisha: There's that part! There's definitely that part, but I do think yeah, there's there's a lot of like, fantasy, here, untested theories about oneself, desire, a lot of desire, a lot of longing that's coming through. And we have to get to the bottom of that. So yeah, just you've made some observations, question asker, about who you think you are. And now's the time to investigate if those things feel really true to you, and if so, that's going to have some really solid consequences for you and your current relationship and any other relationship you have in your future. I would say, I mean, I work with so many women in their 30s, who come with a lot of anxiety about how they're going to form a family if they're single forever or whatnot. And, and the point is, there are lots of ways to start a family on your own, or, you know, single parent by choice, but then later start focusing on dating. Your priorities will be very different in a partner when you have a child. 

Elle: Absolutely. 

Myisha: You know? So we don't want to get boxed in to the, you know, if you're thinking about polyamory that's, that's taking a step off the relationship escalator already. So why put yourself back on it with this idea that you have to have one partner who then becomes the father of your children who you stay with forever. Like, there's there's some conflicting kind of narratives here that you're you're living with. And that's deeply uncomfortable and can definitely make people feel like ah I've gotta just make a choice that's going to blow up my life. So!

Elle: Well, you know what's interesting is, oddly enough, I had a very similar situation that, that did blow up my life, but in a good way! 

Myisha: Oh! 

Elle: When I was married, and we were in a sexless marriage, and I just sort of, like lost it one day, and I'm like, I don't, I've never experienced passion. And I don't want to live the rest of my life without that, and I left my husband. Now, for me, that was the right choice. But there is nuance in everything, and when giving advice, it's like, there is an inner knowing and then there is a feeling. And the more you know yourself, the more you'll be able to tap into what is true for you and a path that you want to take. Because again, like if you want to open up your marriage, and that might be the paradigm that works for you in relationships! 

Myisha: Yeah. 

Elle: And you might want to explore that! Or maybe it's a passing fancy, but you won't know until you explore it and going to therapy and coaching together I think is the way to go. 

Myisha: I agree. Yes. Let's move on to our next question, which is from someone who is dealing with a sexless marriage.

Elle: Hmm, that's a hard one.

Question 2: I'm constantly reminded by my married and unmarried friends about their active sex lives. I've been married for 7 years with someone I've been with for 17 years. It's a sexless marriage, unless it's for having kids and my wife is uncomfortable talking about it. How common is this?

Elle: Well, it's extremely common, as far as I'm concerned, wouldn't you say?

Myisha: Oh, absolutely. One of the top concerns, and I would say there's like degrees of sexlessness. 

Elle: Yeah. 

Myisha: We could talk about that. So this person does not actually qualify how long it's been, right? They just say it's a sexless marriage, right?

Elle: Yes, sexless unless it's for procreation. So yeah, that would be, that would be it. And there isn't any information about it doesn't seem that it's an attraction thing or anything! So just my first blush on this would be, I think we were talking about this earlier, is the the idea of what is sex for you? What is the sex you want to have? And what is sex for you? And then think about how is that possible with your partner? How can we get back into that? And and I think the communication as a as a lubrication of talking about it, even though their partner seems to be a little skittish, I think it's one of those things that as part of a partnership, that you're spending your life with someone I mean, 17 years is a really, that's a commitment, that's a long time and to expect that your sex life is going to be raucous and alive and happening at, you know, anticipated intervals during the month or week or whatever, is unrealistic and something that is perpetuated by media! And, you know, like women's magazines, and, you know, anything we see because, you know, it's sexy to think that everybody's having sex all the time! But the fact of the matter is, is life gets in the way and we start to deprioritize sex. And that's fine! Just like I was saying before, like, I've deprioritized as a choice. But if you really want it and you want that connection and that intimacy with your partner, I think there are ways to, to, to connect with your partner to start to connect on an intimate level that will sort of birth, as it were, more of a physical attachment. And so what I tell people is, what did you guys used to do before to get close? What was it in the beginning besides forget about being horny, like just forget about that. What did you used to do? Did you snuggle? Did you hold hands when you walk down the street? Did when you walk by your partner did you used to rub your hand down their back? Little things like that communicate to us on on an inner level that were desired or wanted, that someone's thinking about us, that someone wants to connect with us, they're making a bid for, for connection. And that's where I would start because sex is such a broad term and it can be so many different things for so many different people. And that might be something without even having to bring up the subject, that one starts and then just say, "You know what? I would really like to connect with you more physically." And don't put any sort of definition on it like I, I like to plow you like three times a week. Like, I don't know, if I'd, I don't know if I'd say that! I might just say, "I want to connect with you more on this intimate level, it's something I miss." And can we just start by like, maybe a couple of times a week, Tuesdays and Thursdays, where we have a time where we just sit and snuggle in the, in bed, and we can talk about our day or whatever, or whatever, and then just sort of go from there! I mean, starting slowly, especially when you've been in a long term relationship, that that hasn't seen sex, and I'm using quotes for that in a long time, starting slowly, and how you would start getting close to somebody again, is is my, is my advice.

Myisha: Yeah. Yeah! Absolutely. And, I mean, I had a conversation yesterday, with someone who really was feeling very similar to this person, and I think feeling a lot of pressure to restart and have their sex life look like it did before. And was fully prepared for me to say, well, yeah, get on that, you know, what's the big deal? What's the problem here? And the real concern was, well, we're not even cuddling. You know, we don't even kiss, we don't even hug anymore. And so, oftentimes, what goes unsaid, I've noticed is that we're not just dealing with sexless, but we're dealing with touchless, yeah, marriages, because touch and physical connection have been used sort of as this proxy, to show sexual interest. And so there's an avoidance there of like, I don't even want to touch you, because I know when you touch me, that what you're really saying is you want to fuck me. 

Elle: Yes. 

Myisha: So you have to rewire. So that's why I think it's really wonderful that you brought that in, you have to rewire and rethink physical connection from the very beginning. You know, what do we do without a lot of expectation before, you know? That it just came naturally in the relationship.

Elle: I think that's such a great point that you just brought up because it is something I hear too, with, whenever whenever they touch me, I know they want sex. I know, that's what they're doing. And so for the person who's doing the touching, who wants to reach out to almost, for them, to deprioritize sex and prioritize making their partner feel loved. And from there feel wanted, without any expectations. And, you know, I find it helpful too to say, can you say that to your partner? Can you say I have no expectations, I just really want to, I just want to feel your skin, and I just want to hang out with you and just cuddle. And it really, again, the rewiring, it really makes a huge, huge difference for a lot of people that now I'm being touched because this person wants to touch me, and I don't have to do anything for it.

Myisha: Yeah and that brings me to my next point because I do think there is a gender issue here. And I know you like talking about the gender aspects of these things as I do. What I've seen too is that a lot of men and I'm assuming that this question asker is a man based on some identifiers here and sex for procreation. 

Elle: That's what I assume too but you know, yeah! Exactly. Yeah.

Myisha: And, and so I think men are socialized to get their touch needs met through sex. 

Elle: Yep. 

Myisha: And so what you're saying makes so much sense. It's, it's almost like helping this person understand that not only do they have more avenues for connection than sex, but they have more to offer than sex.

Elle: It is taking the focus off of something that is so focused on, especially for, you know, cis het men too, that is so goal oriented and to flip the switch and go, what if there wasn't a goal? What if the goal was just to be happy and to feel good? Because really, you know, it just doesn't have to be an orgasm. It doesn't have to be and it's so orgasm focused our our world, when there's so much enjoyment, like someone said something the other day about, you don't take a hike to get to the top of the mountain, you take a hike to see what you see on the way to the mountain, and then you come back down. And it is, it is that reframe, I think, would be most helpful to men sharing that hike together, and an insight and exploring something new together, instead of just, let's get to the top of the mountain as fast as we can, you know, because.

Myisha: Because that's what we need to feel close to each other. 

Elle: That's right. 

Myisha: We've gotta do this. We've got to hit this box.

Elle: We've got habituated. Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Myisha: Which doesn't sound like very much fun.

Elle: You know, I mean, look, I can do that on my own.

Myisha: Yeah. 

Elle: I mean, that's what vibrators are for. 

Myisha: Right. Right.  

Elle: You know, you have a wand that will get you there in two seconds. And then you have the more sensual toys that will let you linger in that, you know, subspace of just erotic enjoyment, and everyone has moods. 

Myisha: Yeah. Well, what you said earlier about, like, oh, the invitation to I just want to touch your skin and be close to you and cuddle with you. Like, that's hot! You know? So there's a lot as you just described, that can be erotic, and, you know, sex adjacent. That may that may in effect, you know, question asker get you to the place of sex, but I don't want you to have that as the destination. 

Elle: Yeah no.

Myisha: But it could result in some fun, erotic entertainment. 

Elle: Yeah! Do yourself the favor of giving yourself that experience of discovering new ways to get turned on.

Myisha: We're going to take a quick break. And when we come back, we're going to hear from a woman who's noticed her dating pool has gotten a little too young for her taste. Elle is sticking around for that, so stay close.

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Myisha: All right, we are back. Let's hear what our next listener has to say.

Question 3: I and other boomer women are getting approached by Gen Z for dates, which makes no sense to us. Since when is dating someone your granny's age sexy? I found lots of bewilderment about this on online forums on the part of boomer and Gen X women. What's this all about?

Elle: God, I love this question.

Myisha: What's it all about, Elle?!

Elle: What's it all about?! I think. I just have theories. 

Myisha: Okay. 

Elle: I am Gen X and when I'm dating, I get guys, like, I do not get guys my own age on online or whatever. And I don't get approached by men my own age, I get approached by men in their 30s, sometimes even younger in their 20s. And I just go okay, you know? Sure. I think. And I think that there is a a very sexy part of aging that people never tend to really think about. And that is confidence and experience that comes with an older woman. And I don't think that that is something that can be tossed aside. Because when I have asked my dates, like, "So you like older women, what's the deal?" like, "Oh god, I just find it's such a turn on, that they know what they want. They are usually really good in bed. And I can talk to them. Like they have stuff to say." And I thought well, those are very good reasons. And it all comes down to too, I think people find it so hard to believe because we're in such a youth obsessed culture, which is also a very, you know, body normative, able bodied, sort of culture where you have to look a certain way, which is, you know, usually white, thin, you know, light hair, athletic, something like that. That's the message I was getting when I was growing up. And it's just not, that's just not what everybody finds attractive. In fact, many many many people find older, older partners, super sexy, super interesting. And I think the only issue that comes up in the people I talk to, and the people that I will date is it's not super, super interesting for me.

Myisha: Mmm, yes! There's, there's two sides to this coin.

Elle: There's two sides to it. I, I don't. If I want a hookup, great but I don't find personally, the younger men that I have, and I'm not even gonna say dated, because they really were just like friends with benefits. I'm just like, yeah, I have to go through the talk. And then I'm gonna have to sort of teach them a little bit. And they're not comfortable. And they're doing the porn sex. And it's like, there is a comfortability and a beauty that comes with experience and a just life experience. And I think that's, that's part of it, too. But I think initially, it's like, yeah, it's hot. They know what they want. They're confident. You know? I don't know. That's my feeling. 

Myisha: Oh, yeah. No, I mean, in my, in my research. This was actually a question that was emailed to me directly, because I wrote a piece about Gen Z and dating and, and so I kind of just poked around. And there's Reddit forums for people who are like, yeah, these are the things that I'm attracted to when I'm, when I'm matching with you it's because of this. And those are exactly the same things that you mentioned. You know, experience sexually, confidence in themselves, know what they want, are not focused on the things that younger women are focused on i.e. getting married, having kids, etc, takes a lot of the pressure off of these men to not be dating for that purpose. So lucky them, ya know? I'm an elder millennial, some real cuspy Gen X millennial so we also grew up with the American Pie movies. And Stiffler's mom, the actress Jennifer, help me out somebody. 

Elle: Coolidge. 

Myisha: Coolidge! 

Elle: Yes! 

Myisha: She has said like, that role gave her access to a sex life that she had never experienced before. Playing the role of Stiffler's mom opened so much for her and she really took advantage of that. I think she said, after that series of movies, or you know, during the course of like, those movies coming out and her appearance in them she had sex with, like 200 men, I think, was the quote? 

Elle: God bless her.

Myisha: So she's like, yeah, I just this was this was really it really helped me out and it was fun. And there is I mean that character is incredibly, she embodies the Mrs. Robinson, the "I will teach you. I have a lot to give and I have a lot of just like seething sexual energy," which I think like, to this question asker seems like they don't identify with that, you know, they don't see themselves as this you know, sex kitten honeypot, who is just you know, looking for a younger man to seduce. She's just like, I'm just out here being me trying to date. So to me what's happening, there is a lot of projection, you know, because you look a certain way and you are a certain age, you must be Stiffler's mom or you do have these qualities that I'm looking for. So, you know, that's, that's one of the drawbacks, I guess to to online dating as you know, you're kind of looking around for something and seeing oh, yeah, this might be, this might be the mommy I'm looking for.

Elle: Yeah, exactly. Yes. You have to, you have to really know what kind you're gonna get, you know. Because you never know. It's, sometimes it is a mommy thing or sometimes, like a fetishization situation, or it could just be a preference. One of the things like I will tell people who I coach for body image is that who are you to tell someone what they're attracted to? Just because you have made a judgment based on all the information that has come in through your software does not mean that that is the way for everyone. It's just like art. You know, some people like the Kooning. Some people think it's awful. Some people like Pollock, some other people think that it's just, you know, throwing paint on a board, that it has to be Caravaggio, or fine arts or whatever, to be beautiful. And that's just not the way life works. So I think it's the same for people that don't see themselves as being attractive enough to get the quote unquote younger man, which for many on the surface would seem to be a feather in one's cap, but it just depends what you want. Like, if you want a companion that you have sex with that you can travel with, and then they go home at night. Then maybe that's not great for you. I don't know. I don't know. 

Myisha: Yeah.

Elle: There's so much nuance there.

Myisha: Yes. I also, I want to direct people to Cindy Gallop's TED talk, because it definitely correlates with your experience. One of the reasons why she started Make Love Not Porn, which is fantastic everyone should check it out, is because she was, I think, in her 50s, maybe maybe had just turned 50 at the time, and was very open about dating men in their 20s. But noticing that they really were learning how to have sex through porn, and enacting those things out in the bedroom, and it really took her by surprise. So again, that's something to maybe be cautious of, hashtag not all, not all Gen Z's, not all 20s. You know? 

Elle: Right. Right. 

Myisha: But you know, men in their 30s, men in their 40s at this point, have grown up with porn depictions and have modeled how they have sex with their partners from that. So, you know, hopefully we're getting away from that but. 

Elle: Yeah. I mean, don't get me wrong, I love porn. I used to have a porn site where I curated porn images, you know, but it is not education. It is not a way. It's entertainment. But yeah, and Joan Price is, is another one to sort of check out. She's much more sex education, how to be, you know, a sexual person in your, in your 50s and onward. Anyway. 

Myisha: Resources. Yes.

Elle: Resources!

Myisha: It's real. It's out there. 

Elle: And it's happening a lot. 

Myisha: It's happening a lot. It's very common. Absolutely. So yeah, now we've given you some things to think about, question asker, and you can decide if you would like to engage or not. 

Elle: That is right. You have the choice. 

Myisha: Exactly. Okay. Those are all the questions that we have, but I have a question for you to kind of round us out today. We've had such a great conversation already, but I'm really curious about any big sex myths that you would like, busted, like, anything that you think if everyone knew this, we would be out of a job, you and I. 

Elle: Oh! I think that if people, I think we touched on this in the beginning, but if people knew that it was totally normal, again, I hate that word, but it's totally normal, totally fine, to have differences in desire. To go up and down periods of your life where you don't want to have sex. And you don't have to have sex, the way you've been having it if you don't enjoy it. That you should be having sex that you enjoy, and that if sex, if sex for you is just like, "Yeah, it's fine!" You know? Hmm. Let's talk about why it's just fine. What kind of sex do you want to have? What kind of sex would be exciting for you and that you'd look forward to? But I think definitely desire discrepancies also, especially for women in menopause, perimenopause, and having men understand that and go about things differently. That would, I would have to become like a librarian somewhere, I wouldn't be able to make a living.

Myisha: Sounds like a nice like, second, second life, you know?

Elle: It’s a nice second life, you know, but we're fighting the good fight.

Myisha: Yes, you and I are in the trenches every day. 

Elle: The trenches dammit, somebody's gotta do it! 

Myisha: The sexual trenches!

Elle: Dammit. Oh, my God. 

Myisha: Well thank you so much, Elle. I really appreciate your thoughtful take on the questions that we got today, but before we go, where can people find you? Either on the internet, in person, if you're doing any events that you have lined up? 

Elle: They can always find me on Instagram at The Elle Chase, E-L-L-E, or on my website at Elle Chase dot com. 

Myisha: Amazing. Thanks again! 

Elle: Thank you!

Myisha: That's it for today! Thanks for listening. If you want advice about your hookups, relationships, or sex life, drop me an email at sex life at kcrw dot org. 

Myisha: How's Your Sex Life? is a KCRW Original podcast. Our producer is Andrea Bautista. Our executive producer is Gina Delvac. This episode was recorded by Hope Brush. Our music was created by Carolyn Pennypacker Riggs. Special thanks to Women's Audio Mission, Arnie Seipel and Jennifer Ferro. And as always a huge thanks to our voice actors. We’ll let them introduce themselves on the way out. 

Voice actor 1: This is Gina Delvac. Thanks for listening. 

Voice actor 2: I’m Raghu Manavalan. If you liked this episode, share it with a friend!

Voice actor 3: This is Ariana Morgenstern. See you next time for another episode of How’s Your Sex Life.